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Post by mare27 on Mar 9, 2015 21:15:34 GMT -6
That's what I love about Justified, you could watch and enjoy a single episode out of context but there is so much more to it when you watch and digest every moment and remember why something that happened in series 3 is relevant now. It all comes together so nicely. Help me! Winona says she was on two flights and an UBER...what the heck is an UBER? anyone?
just rewatched this episode... the calm sweet baby in the scenes in the office, with Art, and with Rachel...her big eyes watching them from Daddy's arms, so adorable...so precious! and didn't she look just like an angel when she was sleeping in the crib?
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Post by wkw99 on Mar 10, 2015 5:34:49 GMT -6
UBER is a mobile device managed car service (it's a fancy way of getting a cab). Most larger cities have it now. But, in the timeline of Justified it's not 2015 yet, and UBER has only been around since 2010, and it started in larger cities, it would be odd for Lexington to have it in show-time.
Plus, if she has to take Willa to the pediatrician and visiting - why wouldn't she rent a car??
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Post by ripetebook on Mar 10, 2015 8:07:17 GMT -6
Thanks on uber...had my questions. And could not agree more...that baby or babies were so precious...I can't stop watching this episode.
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Post by justifiedceo on Mar 10, 2015 17:51:54 GMT -6
All,
I know we are hours away from the next thread.
But ... I feel what is key ... was setup in E1 ... that Boyd .... killed Dewey ... and Rylan only roughed him up.
That tells me more than interviews. Rylan has the moral high ground. And Boyd doesn't.
The rest is simply prose and narrative.
This means, we are either being set up for a fall of Rylan ... of epic proportions ... or more likely the kind of ending, deserving of a show .... that is the outlier of today's anti-hero narrative.
Which is the point of the intended - go against the grain ...go-to-market strategy of a flawed hero winning at the end.
JC
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Post by mare27 on Apr 1, 2015 20:01:22 GMT -6
Hey, Justified CEO and All. I'm watching and enjoying every minute of the final season along with you. Just not posting here as often, as I'm dealing with a health issue. I'll post when I can. Losing a favorite show . . . sucks. There's no other way to say it. We've all invested a lot of time and heart in Justified. But at the same time, I can't imagine my life without it. It brings me that much pleasure. Many here know, I 'found' Justified online at the end of Season 2, while I was scoping out Kyle Chandler's Emmy competition. Friday Night Lights was in its final season, and I was in anticipated mourning much as I am today. FNLs was another favorite show for many of the same reasons I love Justified: writing, dialogue, casting, acting, scoring, locations, relatability. Lucky for me the first Justified episode I saw was 'Reckoning.' I was instantly drawn in by the wounded hero, Raylan Givens. And it was another Southern tale to boot. As a Southern girl, I'm a sucker for a good, tall authentic Southern tale. Elmore Leonard's dialogue is the smartest, snappiest, crispest dialogue I think I've ever experienced. I'm not into watching violence for the sake of violence. To me, Raylan and Boyd are so often like the Road Runner and Wiley E. Coyote . . . just good fun. I've so hoped for Raylan, Boyd, and Ava to all leave Harlan alive. What Would Elmore Do? Makes me wonder. This was his favorite Raylan. He loved this show. He was proud of this show. Could it ever be topped? I'm sure GY, TO and his son, Peter, will do right by Elmore. I worry they may lay it to rest, along with him. Otherwise, I'd predict Boyd gets his in the end, and Raylan walks off into the sunset and the next chapter of Elmore's next novel. Ava? Not sure. She's back to where she started. In trouble with the Crowders. It doesn't look good. In the meantime, I've waited and watched Connie Britton go on to do American Horror Story and Nashville. Kyle is about to star in the binge-worthy Bloodline on Netflix with Sissy Spacek, Sam Shepherd, and Linda Cardinelli, after doing some short movie roles in some big films. Taylor Kitsch will star in Season 2 of True Detectives with Colin Farrell. Kevin Rankin (Devil) and Brad Leland (Calhoun Schreier) both showed up on Justified. Like all of you, I will wait to see where Raylan, Boyd, Art, Rachel, Tim, Ava, and Winona turn up next and hope they've earned the right to new shows and movies worthy of their talent. Just wonderin' how you are doing? Miss your posts...Look for your name each time I'm online...Hope you are well!
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Post by coco13 on May 21, 2015 13:07:20 GMT -6
I'd love to know if they had already decided on the endgame for Raylan & Winona when they were filming The Hunt - after re-watching this episode, it still doesn't make sense to me where R&W ended up in the finale.
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Post by ripetebook on May 21, 2015 13:30:38 GMT -6
I could not agree more! Was her "you can have me and be you" just the writers misdirect? The title of the finale "The Promise" made me hope for a happy ending for Raylan...he got some...he seems at peace in Miami...and he is all daddy to Willa....but he lost Winona yet again! Yeah they write a selfish Winona! He changes but she still dumps him! And he still loves her. Just once I want him to say No to her offer! That is my wish for Raylan....and yet we know it will not happen....unless he meets a woman that loves him as he is!
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Post by coco13 on May 21, 2015 13:56:39 GMT -6
I could not agree more! Was her "you can have me and be you" just the writers misdirect? The title of the finale "The Promise" made me hope for a happy ending for Raylan...he got some...he seems at peace in Miami...and he is all daddy to Willa....but he lost Winona yet again! Yeah they write a selfish Winona! He changes but she still dumps him! And he still loves her. Just once I want him to say No to her offer! That is my wish for Raylan....and yet we know it will not happen....unless he meets a woman that loves him as he is! As a Winona fan, I just hoped that they'd end up together in the end
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Post by ripetebook on May 21, 2015 19:33:33 GMT -6
But aren't you curious if they do a movie or miniseries and tell us what happened in the four year gap...don't recall her ever calling him a jerk...teasing or otherwise? How did we get from you can be you to married to Richard? Means did she dump Raylan? Did that 51/49% thing fail? Does Raylan have a new lady? I mean that man living like a monk....not that sexy man? And we see he loves her...Yost claims they go another round? Yeah I am missing Justified! And knowing there won't be another season........
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Post by mondayschild on May 21, 2015 21:22:00 GMT -6
'book, I don't ever remember her calling him a jerk either, but she intimated it in other ways. In the The Hunt, I really thought she had reconsidered their relationship and wanted to be a family with him and Willa and was willing to do whatever it took. And he was thrilled. He showed her how good he was with Willa and that he still loved her. They may truly love each other, but she is not as invested as he is and has never been. We don't know what exactly led to their divorce. In The Collection, Raylan describes the marriage and divorce as very acrimonious. (I think he was embellishing a bit to make a point, but...) Maybe it was the cheating? I think the cheating was just a symptom of a lot of discord in the marriage. She cheated before she filed for divorce. She married Gary. Then she came back to Raylan. If that love scene in season 1 was not a come on, I've never seen one. Raylan sees a flicker of hope, but he is still the old Raylan... a disconnected man with lots of baggage of his own. It doesn't work out. He can't seem to change and she won't take the risk. BUT, he risks his whole career by having Nicky Augustine killed to protect her and their unborn child.They keep in touch over Skype. His job keeps him really busy. It is probably his last best chance to put Boyd away. She brings baby Willa to see him and there is a real connection there, it seems. We don't see a complete love scene, but it is implied and she tells Raylan that he can have her AND his work. It looks like the happy ending that we all wanted for them.
Fast forward four years. She is now married to Richard and Raylan is stuck with visitation. We can see that he loves Willa with all of his heart and he still has deep feelings for Winona. If she crooked her little finger, he would come running. He will always give her another chance, but she won't do it for him, in the long run. We are left with a Raylan who is very different from the cowboy marshal that we first met. He has slain a lot of his inner demons and is handling things in a much more measured fashion. He refuses to shoot Boyd. He "fixes" things so that Ava and her child will be safe in the future. He knows that he owes her that. Even his encounter at the prison with Boyd is handled with a measure of compassion. I think if he ran into Dickie Bennett we would see the same thing. Raylan has put past drama behind him.
I don't think, at that point, that Raylan had a new woman. He might have had a one night stand or a short relationship now and then, but those things have never lasted for him. The only woman he ever wanted was Winona. She loves him in her own way, but she was never able to go the extra mile and hang in there. Richard may or may not be her answer to the safe, predictable life. She may run to Raylan again at some point. And, of course, he will take it as a sign that she wants him more than anything else. But I think he would be wrong.
Call me a cynic. Tell me that they are soul mates.. true loves. Tell me that I "just don't understand" how much they love each other. But it just doesn't make sense that they are not together if this is true. He has changed a lot and still is not the man Winona wants to be married to. I still think that Winona is Raylan's true love but that she, even though she loves him in her own way, is searching for what she considers to be the "perfect" man. It may or may not be Richard. We will never know.
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Post by coco13 on May 21, 2015 23:50:46 GMT -6
But aren't you curious if they do a movie or miniseries and tell us what happened in the four year gap...don't recall her ever calling him a jerk...teasing or otherwise? How did we get from you can be you to married to Richard? Means did she dump Raylan? Did that 51/49% thing fail? Does Raylan have a new lady? I mean that man living like a monk....not that sexy man? And we see he loves her...Yost claims they go another round? Yeah I am missing Justified! And knowing there won't be another season........ This is why it didn't make any sense to me, based on what we saw of them on screen in 'The Hunt' to see where they ended up in 'The Promise'. I wonder how much of them not ending up together is just down to the fact that they didn't want to give Raylan too much of a 'happy ending'. I don't see Winona as the 'bad guy' in how thing turned out and I think the addition of Richard was random and unnecessary at this point. If they ever did a miniseries or movie I would love to think that we would see Winona again, but based on how briefly she appeared in seasons 5&6, I won't hold my breath! Mondayschild, maybe I'm wearing my R&W 'shipper goggles, but I've never thought their marriage was portrayed as having been particularly acrimonious. I've always felt that underneath whatever their issues were, was their love for each other - they certainly declared it enough times! I do think they are soulmates and the great loves of each other's lives. I don't think they would have reconnected again in season 1 if things had ended really acrimoniously between them. I'll have to rewatch 'The Collection' again, but I thought Raylan told Ava "my marriage ended a lot more amicably than yours did" (but given that she killed her husband that wouldn't be hard!) and when she asked why he got divorced, he said that 'it seemed like a good idea at the time'. The R&W scenes in 'The Collection' are some of my favorites.
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Post by ripetebook on May 22, 2015 9:28:26 GMT -6
I think Raylan is actually more willing to work on the relationship than Winona. I think if there develops an issue...Winona seeks to run. Raylan was too much marshal so she jumped at the chance of Gary. And no the divorce was not acrimoniously done! She wanted Gary and Raylan released her. He wasn't moving forward fast enough when she first got pregnant and she ran to sister Gayle! After a declaration of love she packs up and vanishes! So whatever she goes to mom in Miami and months away from Raylan and she wants him all over again. Sadly he had come to accept that they were going to parent in joint custody and two homes....but she does her I love you and you can have it all and Raylan accepts because he loves her! But as we see....again she must have found a new issue and ran. Met Richard and married him...dumping the man she likely will "discover yet again" is the one she wants. My dream for Raylan....just say NO! She will want more if she can't get it! That may teach her or help her grow up!!!!!!!!
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Post by coco13 on May 22, 2015 9:36:53 GMT -6
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree about R&W's relationship! ;-)
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Post by ripetebook on May 22, 2015 12:24:36 GMT -6
Fair enough. That is why Justified was so great. From day one discussions here were always fun...
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Post by mondayschild on May 22, 2015 14:27:03 GMT -6
coco, I think you are probably correct that the writers decided not to give us a "hearts and flowers" or a "happily ever after" finale. A lot of loose ends were tied up and the criminals were dispatched...some eternally! I was sure we were going to see Raylan and Winona and Willa ensconced in a little love nest in Florida. But they left us wondering what the heck happened. That's the best kind of ending really. It leaves us wanting more. I don't know if anyone here saw the Mad Men ending, but it left me wondering about so much. That way the characters tend to live on in our minds. As to Justified, I'd love to know how Ava's little boy grows up. I want to know more about Willa...such a dear little girl. I want another shot at watching Boyd preach. And I want to know about Loretta. We invested so much in that character. I for one, hate that she is a criminal. She's a very bright girl and she has a ton of money. She can be anything she wants to be. She could do a lot of good. I hope that episode in the shed finally scared her straight. I was heartened to see that she saved Raylan's life, so she's not as hard as she pretends to be. When she faced off against Markham at the pizza place, she talked about doing good things for the people of Harlan with the weed business. Did she mean that at all? And if weed doesn't become legal in Kentucky will she grow it anyway and live the life of a criminal? See what I mean? So much to wonder about.
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Post by wkw99 on May 22, 2015 16:29:41 GMT -6
OK...now it's Friday afternoon and I can weigh in... Here's the thing. We never get to see things from Winona's perspective, or see her apart from Raylan. we never get to hear her tell a friend about all the lonely nights waiting for him, or waiting up worrying where he was or if he was coming home. We don't get to hear her version of things. We never really know her. What we do know, comes in bits and pieces and often doesn't add up to much of a whole. So, since we see a lot of Raylan and the show is basically from his perspective, it's easy to blame her for their problems. I'm not going to argue the whole are-they-or-aren't-they-soulmates, as far as I'm concerned, Yost and TO settled that long ago. But here's what I think about the events in The Hunt, and what probably happened in those four years. Winona came back to KY to see what was keeping Raylan from joining them in Miami. The doctor was an excuse, a way to save face if he said he wasn't coming after all. She could've seen a much better specialist in Miami. You might say she should know he was coming eventually, but how? How have any of his actions, any of his promises, panned out for her? They aren't at Glynco, they never bought a house...he paid lip service to those things, but he never followed through. He's left her alone with a newborn for six months without so much as a visit...I would say she had good reason to be insecure and not a little pissed. But...she recognizes her role in their problems and comes to him not with an ultimatum, but offering him basically all he could want. She's sleep-deprived, emotional, and probably more than a little horny... So they reunite and he joins her in Florida once Boyd is put away. Then what happens? I read something not long ago in my morning devotionals that said all any of us really wants is to be chosen by someone...to know that in any given situation, they will choose to put us, or their relationship with us, first. It hit home with me, and I think that's what Winona is looking for, not 'the perfect man'. She just wants Raylan to choose her...to put her and Willa first. And his track record with that is not good. Yes, he took care of Nicky Augustine, but she really doesn't know too much about how that went down. And again, he let her sit in Florida, even came to Miami, and never visited his baby girl. I would imagine that what happened as they settled in is that they both went back to being who they are. He worked too much, came home too late, and basically put his job ahead of Winona and Willa and as much as she loves him she just couldn't put up with it the way she thought she could. So, they split...and she met Richard. That's the part that seems unrealistic to me. I'm not sure she'd get married again so quickly, considering what happened with Gary. I could see her living with someone easier than being married again. But, I think like someone else said, that was the writers not wanting to give Raylan a completely happy ending.
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Post by ripetebook on May 22, 2015 21:23:09 GMT -6
Well put! But I do or rather did see big tho subtle changes in Raylan. I do believe he is no longer that angry man and Winona knows that. I do believe he is still marshal Givens but his love for Willa is very real and very deep and his time with her is a priority. His not having dinner was more not needing to be the fifth wheel in Richard's home. I do think Winona needs to be with a man...can not be alone and when it wasn't enough with Raylan she found a new man. And that line about Willa wrapping him around her finger..truth is Winona plays that man....always has and sadly always will!
And if they revisit Justified..and Natalie is available....there will be another round for them!!!!!!
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Post by ripetebook on May 22, 2015 21:42:28 GMT -6
EW.com finale contest....we made it to the finals in some categories....please go vote. Best line...you guessed it..."we dug coal together" best final scene...again Raylan in the prison. Best verbal or physical scene....I think they meant Raylan and Boone but put earl instead? ?? And actor for the emmy was Walton. If nothing else get that line to be number one!!!!!! Thanks and spread the word!
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Post by mondayschild on May 22, 2015 22:03:19 GMT -6
'book,I have to agree. And I agree with wkw that we've never gotten the whole picture on Winona and I've always wished that we had. It might answer a lot of questions. But there is enough to know that Raylan will never give her everything she needs. She may love him, but he will never be the one she marries. It's an incomplete love. "I love you, but..." (It's not as if he is a hopeless reprobate, for heavens sake!) I feel a bit sorry for Richard. He is probably one dumb mistake away from divorce court. I'd love to know what made him her choice for her third husband. Raylan has grown a lot since he was married to her. He is not perfect, but he is a better man. He has changed a bit for the better. She has not. She jumps from man to man, with Raylan in between.(BTW, I find it a very endearing quality in a man that he believes in his job and has a devotion to it. Especially a job as important as the one he has.) I'm going to try to stop beating this dead horse. It's simple. He loves her no matter what. For whatever reason, she can't make that jump.
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Post by wkw99 on May 23, 2015 4:16:58 GMT -6
Sorry, Monday, but this horse still has some life in it for me. The subtle changes we see in the 'Four Years Later' part...ladies, they didn't happen overnight....maybe the change in Raylan has happened slowly. Maybe what Winona lacks is not love for Raylan, but patience. It would be easy to feel, in her shoes, that things were only going to continue down the same path. And we have no idea how much she has changed, Monday...no idea. They obviously get along. She's not keeping Willa from him, or asking him to stay away from her and Richard. They're working together for their daughter's sake. I guess I just wish you all would stop judging her and assuming Raylan is the one who's been wronged. Walk a mile or two in her shoes. Maybe she just couldn't get over being left alone for the first six months of Willa's life? You'll probably say it was her own fault, but for Raylan not to even visit makes him a bit of a schmuck in my book. Maybe Miami was more of the same, with late nights alone with a baby, then a toddler, no adult to talk to...really...it's sad, but I don't blame her. Not a bit. More than anything, though, I blame sloppy writing. Sigh. The writers did a lot of things wonderfully, but they never did Winona, or R&W's relationship, justice.
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Post by siss13 on May 23, 2015 9:28:53 GMT -6
OK...now it's Friday afternoon and I can weigh in... Here's the thing. We never get to see things from Winona's perspective, or see her apart from Raylan. we never get to hear her tell a friend about all the lonely nights waiting for him, or waiting up worrying where he was or if he was coming home. We don't get to hear her version of things. We never really know her. What we do know, comes in bits and pieces and often doesn't add up to much of a whole. So, since we see a lot of Raylan and the show is basically from his perspective, it's easy to blame her for their problems. I'm not going to argue the whole are-they-or-aren't-they-soulmates, as far as I'm concerned, Yost and TO settled that long ago. But here's what I think about the events in The Hunt, and what probably happened in those four years. I would imagine that what happened as they settled in is that they both went back to being who they are. He worked too much, came home too late, and basically put his job ahead of Winona and Willa and as much as she loves him she just couldn't put up with it the way she thought she could. So, they split...and she met Richard. That's the part that seems unrealistic to me. I'm not sure she'd get married again so quickly, considering what happened with Gary. I could see her living with someone easier than being married again. But, I think like someone else said, that was the writers not wanting to give Raylan a completely happy ending. We probably never agree when it comes to Winona, but I agree with you on the highlighted point above. I think that four year span was left open for viewer interpretation intentionally by the writers in regards to what happened between Raylan and Winona. I also imagined they gave the relationship one last try, maybe for a year or two, but it just didn't work. Being who they really are together probably no longer worked as parents. And Winona moved on within the next couple of years, which is completely realistic to me. She's a mother who probably wants a true family unit for her daughter. One that is as close to normal as possible. Her life was not normal with US Marshal, Raylan Givens, even though they loved each other. And Raylan is not willing to have a career outside of being a Marshal. Graham and TO made it clear that Raylan would have minimal growth. I think he'll have to put that growth into being the best father he can be. For me, Raylan's "happy ending" is about having a healthy relationship with his daughter, something his father never had with Raylan. And we saw a hint of that in final show. So I thought it was perfect. In my opinion, the writers have never led us to believe that Raylan would ever put a wife or girlfriend before his job. So I never expected Raylan and Winona to be more than friends and co-parents.
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Post by ripetebook on May 23, 2015 9:34:49 GMT -6
I do get your valid points. But I come back to this episode as more pivotal than anything. He had accepted that they would have joint custody and even encouraged her meeting and dating! It was her "damn it I love you. You can have me and BE YOU" that was wrong! She made an offer for her own needs and when he or she failed...she went a huntin' for a new man!!!! Had she not made the offer I would support her but that offer gave him such hope and like too many times she smashed those hopes.....and he still loves her. If he is the weak link..let the love issue end. Let the man find his ideal woman! She plays games with his heart! Okay so we aren't done with this.....
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Post by siss13 on May 23, 2015 10:14:16 GMT -6
LOL, ripetebook. I feel your passion. Maybe in a couple of years, Raylan will be off to Paris to hunt down a fugitive. And by then, Winona will have left her husband and fallen into Raylan's arms once again. And the family will live happily ever after in Paris, Raylan a wealthy private security specialist. There is still a chance for your happy ending.
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Post by ripetebook on May 23, 2015 12:00:54 GMT -6
In further defense of the marshal....she said she could never love anyone like she loves him and was done trying to change him! And he comes home after nearly dying at the hands of those kidney stealing criminals to find she packed up and left!!!! Her move to Miami was to have her mother there for support. She was not working! He on the other hand had a job....in Kentucky! Why couldn't she come back to where he was? Maybe he did take way too long for the move and gave her cause to be pissed...but she has a long history of...mood swings and his heart has been pounded on by a brutal father and a faithless wife! He rid himself of all his childhood demons...and forgave the faithless wife/lover countless times....they are both equally at fault. Defense rests!!!!!!!!!
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Post by wkw99 on May 23, 2015 14:59:45 GMT -6
I do get your valid points. But I come back to this episode as more pivotal than anything. He had accepted that they would have joint custody and even encouraged her meeting and dating! It was her "damn it I love you. You can have me and BE YOU" that was wrong! She made an offer for her own needs and when he or she failed...she went a huntin' for a new man!!!! Had she not made the offer I would support her but that offer gave him such hope and like too many times she smashed those hopes.....and he still loves her. If he is the weak link..let the love issue end. Let the man find his ideal woman! She plays games with his heart! Okay so we aren't done with this..... I think ultimately, Raylan recognizes his part in their splits...and shares the blame with her. I also think that aside from her, he's not the marrying kind. There is no ideal woman for him...she's The One and all others are merely place-holders. I could see the scenario Siss13 describes, in fact, I like ithe idea a lot. I could also see them remaining apart for years, then coming together when Raylan retires, in time for those two rocking chairs on the front porch and grand babies.
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