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Post by mare27 on Mar 4, 2015 9:46:09 GMT -6
Ok, yes, we Raylan and Winona 'shippers got the pinata to spill the candy this week, at last, but I'm going go in another direction here, the Ty Walker storyline. Does the Walker story line seem bizarre and disjointed to you??? Does anyone feel like mid season sluggishness is happening? Where are they going with him? What was established in this episode other than Raylan & Winona? Not much, in my Tally. Art tells Markham he's onto him as the old CI. So What? Why is Markham as an old CI important to bringing down the Boyd Crowder? Is BC the point of this season? The Crowder's story deserves its own post, so I'll work on that tomorrow. Markham forgets what he learned in Vietnam and leaves a man behind. OK, we knew he's a dick already...So What? Take this bullet proof vest to Mickey Mouse on Main street in Orlando?? Does anyone know what is happening there? Maybe I had so many little weepies in my eyes over Raylan and Winona that I missed the point there, LOL. Markham lets those two UK kids go but puts down a couple of EMS guys who apparently happen upon him. I'm just confused. re the ambulance, Walker called 911 and had a story about his brother being hurt, so they rushed in, but they were on the lookout for this fugitive and tried to sedate him by injection, Walker recognized the medication and shot both of them, taking their supplies with him...and I agree, what do we gain from his story going forward...? and the money and credit cards to the frat boys with the errand was just to create a false trail by use of the credit cards.
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Post by ripetebook on Mar 4, 2015 10:43:50 GMT -6
I loved every Raylan with Willa scene. I melted. How they got that baby to cry on cue was great. Loved Winona's honesty. She was there to say she loved him as he is...she I pray can stick with that. Timothy may not like working with children...but he was perfect. Just enough mush and Raylan to make it moving...touchy feely. Ava telling Boyd she is Raylan's ci shook me up big time. We discussed her agenda..she just wants to live...at any cost. She threw Boyd's betrayal in his face and yet..does she love him? He tested her and she passed....but I do think he could and likely will kill her. Art and Markham. Hot darn scene. Loved art with Willa. Is it just me or is that baby a beauty? Rachel is becoming a hardass... Maybe she will see why Raylan is one. Walker is now just a dangerous loose cannon..good luck to anyone he runs into. Zachiriah and his agenda¿ ?? Loving this season....and yeah...love scene with Raylan and Winona.super tender and loving. Best scene to me... Raylan laying on the bed playing with Willa.
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Post by ripetebook on Mar 4, 2015 11:50:06 GMT -6
Quick question! Preview showed Raylan's grave stone being bulldozed... Anyone catch that and what it could mean? Then the two saying they will miss the "game" they have played? Omg this show is just pure fun.
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Post by mare27 on Mar 4, 2015 13:19:52 GMT -6
Quick question! Preview showed Raylan's grave stone being bulldozed... Anyone catch that and what it could mean? Then the two saying they will miss the "game" they have played? Omg this show is just pure fun. That bulldozing of the grave stone...I instantly thought maybe Raylan is planning to live there with family and wanted that thing taken away.... OR maybe he just wanted to remove the thing, which is pretty creepy to have around...even if the house is being sold. Next week looks pretty good!
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Post by motorcitymade on Mar 4, 2015 20:16:36 GMT -6
Yeah, I caught that gravestone being overturned. Maybe the badguys are digging his grave and the backhoe went wild?? Just kidding. Remember those previews never show us what is really happening.
Thanks all for the clarification on Walker, I just wasn't paying that close of attention because I was doubled over ovulating over seeing Raylan with his baby. Ah hahahahah.
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Post by motorcitymade on Mar 4, 2015 20:25:36 GMT -6
I'm confused why Willa has to have a heart murmur. Is that something that's going to be revisited before the end of the series? Or was it some kind of plot ploy? As for both couples, Raylan and Winona and Boyd and Ava, last nights episode left me feeling that both relationships might actually be doomed. And I wonder if the look on Boyd's face at the end of his conversation with Ava, and the look on Raylan's face when Winona walked out was a subtle or not so subtle foreshadowing by the writers going into the final episodes of the season. I'm going to watch again tonight. I might be missing something. Willa has a heart murmmer because her momma broke her daddy's hear while she was percolating. No, it's not that Karmic. Its a leaky or even sticky valve, right medical professionals?
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Post by mare27 on Mar 4, 2015 23:30:14 GMT -6
I loved every Raylan with Willa scene. I melted. How they got that baby to cry on cue was great. Loved Winona's honesty. She was there to say she loved him as he is...she I pray can stick with that. Timothy may not like working with children...but he was perfect. Just enough mush and Raylan to make it moving...touchy feely. Ava telling Boyd she is Raylan's ci shook me up big time. We discussed her agenda..she just wants to live...at any cost. She threw Boyd's betrayal in his face and yet..does she love him? He tested her and she passed....but I do think he could and likely will kill her. Art and Markham. Hot darn scene. Loved art with Willa. Is it just me or is that baby a beauty? Rachel is becoming a hardass... Maybe she will see why Raylan is one. Walker is now just a dangerous loose cannon..good luck to anyone he runs into. Zachiriah and his agenda¿ ?? Loving this season....and yeah...love scene with Raylan and Winona.super tender and loving. Best scene to me... Raylan laying on the bed playing with Willa. two quick things- just have to say, as handsome as Raylan/TO looks, back in the suit jacket/dark shirt/tie, I love the return of the snug fitting Henley shirt...Am I right? And regarding working with children... I seem to recall an early TO podcast where he spoke about child actors- it was about Deadwood-Per David Milch, creator of the show, there was so much difficulty with the parent of the kid who played Seth and Martha's son, that Milch decided to kill off the kid's character to end all that. I don't know if there were other "child actor" problems that TO encountered, but I think the often stated aversion to working with kids, was more due to the problems of their "stage" parents, than with the kids. TO worked well with Loretta and this baby(babies) playing Willa, was obviously in good hands. It was a joy to see the Raylan/Willa scenes.
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Post by weegieburd on Mar 5, 2015 3:06:08 GMT -6
A lot of babies have heart murmers, most of them are benign and the babies grow out of them.
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Post by justifiedceo on Mar 5, 2015 9:15:24 GMT -6
All,
A few thoughts after downloading and watching the episode twice within 16 hours -
1. Albeit casting logistics ... RG, Winona and Baby ... had a monumental task of re-kindling the stakes of the show. I don't think it could be optimal, because NZ is not a regular cast member; but I think it was INCREDIBLE that their acting chemistry, on a relative basis, was so strong.
2. What can anyone say about WG's acting, commitment - and at great personal peril - exposing himself so bare? From a morality standpoint ... Boyd has to pay the consequences. But Boyd/Ava vs. RG/Winona - due to time on the set and commitments of the latter - the former took the prize last night.
3. Ava had to make a critical decision. "Sophie's Choice". She - and she wanted to admit it two weeks ago - had to choose sides. The middle couldn't hold. Her decision to be honest with Boyd - may have sealed her fate. I didn't see Boyd loading his gun at the end of the scene as being ready to kill Ava. He tested her. I saw the act of loading his gun, as getting ready to go to war with the law, getting the money from Markham; with a hope he can run away with Ava. SO IN A SENSE THE "THE HUNT" IS ALL ABOUT EVERYONE TRYING TO LEAVE HARLAN. Boyd's dream of running a legal pot business .... that's not an option now that he is at risk of being incarcerated.
4. In theory - RG, AC, BC - are all at risk of dying. But the odds of something bad happening to Boyd is 100%.
5. RG being pensive? This is just me. But what I saw on his face was "god I have so much to lose ... and I don't want to screw this up". As it was predicted, and had to be, RG had to see the "carrot" at the mid-point. Now it's all about doing his job without getting killed or losing his star, so he can finally leave Harlan.
6. The baby heart problem was a plot device to bring Winona back the doctor she trusts. But - and this would be terrible - if the baby is lost - is RG/Winona lost? I am 95% certain that will not happen. But I am 100% certain that the writers want us to wonder and ponder that question.
JC
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Post by ripetebook on Mar 5, 2015 9:39:16 GMT -6
Both my mom and brother had/have murmurs and it was never an issue. And I would bet that show would never kill off the baby. Was anyone else just all gooey inside watching Raylan as a father....it was the warmest side and yet very believeable. Yes I keep rewatching just those scenes....those babies are beautiful. Found Rachel to be too cold regarding Raylan taking one lousy day to see his baby. Again not liking Rachel at all. Loved art's interaction with papa Raylan and Willa. Guess I am just amush.
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Post by mondayschild on Mar 5, 2015 10:26:43 GMT -6
Yes, book. I loved seeing Raylan as a father finally. And I liked that he saw how hard it must be for Winona to have been raising that baby alone and that he took charge so that she could get some sleep. (Been there, done that.) He seemed to know that a car ride would calm Willa and I think he genuinely had fun spending alone time with his little girl. The stage is set for them to be a family in the future. He and Winona seem to be more on the same page than they have been EVER. What fresh hell do the writers have in store for them, I wonder. I hope we'll just see the mopping up of the criminal element, although it is bound to be bloody, and that Raylan can go home safe at night.
As for Rachel: she has always wanted to advance in her career, but she was thrown into being Chief Deputy without warning. I've heard many women in real life say that they have to be twice as good as their male counterparts if they hope to be promoted. Rachel has alluded to this in the past, I think. It may not be the case for some women in some professions, but the problem does exist. She has to prove her merit, which is sad because she was a great marshal. Art said she was his best. This is why he promoted her. But I think in the back of her mind, she thinks she can never make a mistake...that she can never be too soft. We seldom saw the womanly side of Rachel, which I think is a mistake on the part of the writers. After all, we have even seen the soft side of Boyd! Maybe before the end of the series we will see Rachel be a bit more human in her dealings with others.
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Post by justifiedceo on Mar 5, 2015 10:35:34 GMT -6
Talk about being mushy ... Right before going to the theme music ... check out Winona's face as RG is holding their baby and says "I am not going anywhere". Her smile and her love is all over her face. This is real love between two good people with flaws that are becoming more mature in their evolution. It's beautiful and if you care about a happy ending, it does bring a tear to the eye! I don't think it was a coincidence that we saw Boyd and Ava and their dance contrasted within the same episode. Ava and Boyd's love is impacted by Ava's past marriage of violence and Boyd's love being real but territorial. His first concern is if Ava was stepping out on him with RG. So RG/Winona - real love between two good people with flaws that are becoming more mature in their evolution - is contrasted with Ava/Boyd being - flawed love between one bad person and one abused person, with flaws, that are not maturing in their evolution. In fact they are regressing to some kind of teenage insecurities. If the contrast wasn't clear and the stakes were not 100% exposed in the "Hunt" ... I don't know how anyone could have missed it. This was a much needed episode for this very reason. As to fate .... do the good get out of Harlem alive? And/or does the bad get out of Harlan alive. And/or does the battered get out of Harlem alive or safe within Harlem to die someday by natural causes. That's what is at stake for the rest of the final episodes. JC
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Post by wkw99 on Mar 5, 2015 18:34:01 GMT -6
See...I’ve been waiting on you, JC, to give structure to my rambling thoughts. LOL. 1. They didn’t have to rekindle, IMO. Even over Skype, their love for one-another was obvious. But, in the same room...that chemistry is combustible. Actors can’t fake that. It’s either there or it isn’t, and TO and NZ have it in spades. Glad to see it put to some use again. 2. Boyd brought it, and as an individual, Walton gets the award in this ep. He and Ava’s scene in the cabin bugged me. I’m not much for violence leading to sex. And honestly, for stripped bare scenes, I’d call it a draw. R&W’s scenes were shorter and lighter, but I thought they were every bit as challenging, in their own way, and every bit as revealing of the characters. Talking over the screaming baby? That scene was priceless (and very realistic). Winona’s nervous energy and Raylan’s apprehension when she’s telling him she wants him back. Both NZ and TO are more subtle in their skills, but their facial expressions and body language do a lot for them. 3. Ava had no choice but to confess. It’s Boyd’s reaction that surprised me. He cares more about whether or not she’s sleeping with Raylan than the fact that she was a snitch. That goes to his state of mind. I do like your theory about why he’s loading the gun though, not to go after Ava...but to be locked and loaded for whatever is to come. 4. I’d say the chance of something happening to any of them is 50/50. Nothing is ever 100%. 5. I agree. He’s pensive. It’s all about what he wants now...and it’s all within his grasp. 6. I don’t think Justified would kill the baby...but I wouldn’t be surprised if the murmur is more serious than not. When Yost talked about Winona coming back, he said she would have a ‘story arc’. That implies more than one episode. Oh...and for anyone who doubted...Raylan DIDN’T kiss Ava back. (nice article...keep clicking through) www.forbes.com/sites/allenstjohn/2015/03/04/justified-creator-graham-yost-talks-boyd-raylan-and-the-showdown-that-ends-the-fx-series/
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Post by ripetebook on Mar 5, 2015 19:00:44 GMT -6
You are all wonderful and clarifying what we all watched. Thank you. I really want Raylan and Winona to have the chance to raise Willa together. I think they are ready...tho if I saw correctly...Raylan never said he loved her...he showed it and he sure loves his beautiful baby girl. I don't doubt he loves Winona but it did surprise me he never said the words. Think motherhood and the time apart helped Winona know her own heart.
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Post by wkw99 on Mar 5, 2015 19:15:24 GMT -6
He's always loved her. Never stopped. They both know it. No need to say it with words. He said it in other, more important ways.
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Post by mare27 on Mar 6, 2015 8:42:44 GMT -6
See...I’ve been waiting on you, JC, to give structure to my rambling thoughts. LOL. 1. They didn’t have to rekindle, IMO. Even over Skype, their love for one-another was obvious. But, in the same room...that chemistry is combustible. Actors can’t fake that. It’s either there or it isn’t, and TO and NZ have it in spades. Glad to see it put to some use again. 2. Boyd brought it, and as an individual, Walton gets the award in this ep. He and Ava’s scene in the cabin bugged me. I’m not much for violence leading to sex. And honestly, for stripped bare scenes, I’d call it a draw. R&W’s scenes were shorter and lighter, but I thought they were every bit as challenging, in their own way, and every bit as revealing of the characters. Talking over the screaming baby? That scene was priceless (and very realistic). Winona’s nervous energy and Raylan’s apprehension when she’s telling him she wants him back. Both NZ and TO are more subtle in their skills, but their facial expressions and body language do a lot for them. 3. Ava had no choice but to confess. It’s Boyd’s reaction that surprised me. He cares more about whether or not she’s sleeping with Raylan than the fact that she was a snitch. That goes to his state of mind. I do like your theory about why he’s loading the gun though, not to go after Ava...but to be locked and loaded for whatever is to come. 4. I’d say the chance of something happening to any of them is 50/50. Nothing is ever 100%. 5. I agree. He’s pensive. It’s all about what he wants now...and it’s all within his grasp. 6. I don’t think Justified would kill the baby...but I wouldn’t be surprised if the murmur is more serious than not. When Yost talked about Winona coming back, he said she would have a ‘story arc’. That implies more than one episode. Oh...and for anyone who doubted...Raylan DIDN’T kiss Ava back. (nice article...keep clicking through) www.forbes.com/sites/allenstjohn/2015/03/04/justified-creator-graham-yost-talks-boyd-raylan-and-the-showdown-that-ends-the-fx-series/I like your ideas. I am guessing Raylan didn't expect to hear Winona's proposition, probably thought she was just going to wear him out about how he hasn't seen the baby...he has to readjust to this new reality, even if it was something he was hoping for...Like you said he can see the prize clearly now...but he still wants to finish what he started, with Boyd. I was thinking about a comment made earlier on by TO...the writers and Graham and TO think about what does a character want and what's the barrier? For Boyd, he wants to have money, have Ava, and be gone...but he doesn't know yet that another of his guys is gone (Pig), that Zachariah tried to kill him and may still be working on that, that Raylan is still in Harlan only because he is determined to get Boyd before he transfers anywhere...and I don't think he really does trust Ava, that trust has been diminished and may never be the same, knowing she was capable of snitching on him. Boyd's plan, in the mineshaft, whatever that may be, is probably doomed as he only has Carl and Earl left on his team...Is that really the only way Boyd can get the money he wants from robbing Avery Markham? Raylan doesn't know that Boyd killed Dewey, which could still be the key to arresting him, if they find Dewey or if Carl is made to talk (only witness)...Raylan doesn't know that Ava told Boyd the truth and Boyd will use that to go after Raylan, I am sure...Raylan is at a disadvantage now, I think...but that gives him something to figure out and overcome, going forward. Ava, I don't know, she is in trouble no matter which way she goes...and I just realized that Ellen Mae may still be out there(last scene hugging Drew before they took him away) as a witness to Ava killing Delroy, So she could cause trouble too, right? I don't care too much about Ty Walker at this point, but I think he may try to come after Avery , who abandoned him after the failed shootout over Choochoo. So he is a wild card. He won't care who he has to kill...Don't know about Seabass, is he out of the picture? He seems to be Avery's only thug left, unless he imports more guys from Colorado. Who is now guarding the vault in the Pizza place? Can Seabass and Avery stop a robbery by Boyd? What about Katherine and Duffy? They also want Avery dead and they want his money? And could Art, in the end, bring down Avery Markham, before he rides into the sunset? And what about the gravestone (seen in preview), what is going on there? Hoping for a bit more of Winona/baby/Raylan as well. Is the baby ill? Hope not. Can't wait for the next exciting chapter!
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Post by justifiedceo on Mar 6, 2015 9:58:34 GMT -6
All,
I think we can all agree that "The Hunt" was the right set piece at the right time. We know what's at stake. Both RG/Winona and Boyd/Ava. This was critical.
And the Ty Walker scenes - albeit tremendously well-acted by the great Garret Dillahunt - were necessary to break up the contrasting scenes of the two main character arcs stated above. And to breakup AM from Ty, because RG is going to use him to get to Boyd. This was all foreshadowed when RG said "pot being legalized" would be good for KY. And RG telling AM that he wouldn't arrest him for smoking pot. RG doesn't consider pot a crime. He never has. Ultimately at the end, RG would like to see the families in Harlan county thrive from owning land to grow pot. Hence, a temporary alliance with AM, has to be temporary.
Also -
1. WKW. In this Game of Thrones/SOA era of TV; I have found Justified's lack of violence and sex to be a welcome departure. I am not going to question why the writers felt the violence was necessary. I can only say it was repulsive to me.
2. WKW. You are completely right that RG didn't have to say I love you in their scenes. People in love don't have to. Both show their love in their rapport. Both show their love in their eyes. I have written much about how RG is a product of his childhood scars. But he also has carried the scars of not being with the woman he loves. In the early scenes - before she tells RG her real thoughts - all RG's absence of emotion is based on his adaptive behavior of not wanting to be disappointed. After the dam breaks, he is all in. Hence his pensiveness after she leaves. Everything he wants in life is right there now. She is leaving and he wants to not screw anything up so his dreams are realized.
3. As to coming scenes of graves being dug up ... perhaps RG is plotting with AM to either sell his land or pretend to sell his land ... so that Boyd thinks RG is leaving sooner or later. BUT ..... digging up the graves could have two potential plot values. 1. RG's gravestone is removed and with it the fear he/Winona have that he will die there. 2 And/or dare I say we might get some ancillary benefit in finding out something about Francis? What happens if Francis is not really buried there?
4. As hungry as I have been with seeing the next episode trailer (something I have never seen up until this season - because iTunes doesn't show it) ... I am now at the point I don't want to know what is going to happen. I used to like to predict things like who was Waldo for example. But now I want to just let everything play out. Why? Because we only have a limited number of episodes of this show we love. I don't want anything to be rushed. I am taking each episode as a diminishing gift. And I know, something that has been so precious in my life, is going to end soon. The interviews have noted GY trying to get over the show. I can't imagine his pain. I know my own coming loss. And I am just a fan.
JC
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Post by ripetebook on Mar 6, 2015 10:57:44 GMT -6
In the reviews they imply pretty much what justifiedceo said about Raylan being pensive. To be so close to his dreams...and yet needing to finish the job. What did surprise me is they feel Raylan and family will get to live in Lexington!!!! That that is as much his true desire? Got to say that was a huge surprise....yet it made sense...his bonding with art...his showing off Willa to his fellow marshals....Raylan may truly be changing!
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Post by justifiedceo on Mar 6, 2015 11:17:51 GMT -6
didn't see all of this RIPE, very cool.
Now you can sort of see what might be happening. Mom and Dad bonding over the baby's health and doctor. The doctor becoming someone they trust for the long-term. And moving into Winona's house and staying in the Lexington office.
But working for Rachel and not Dan? Perhaps Art goes back in charge. And the head of the office is lost to the future .....
JC
P.S. Where did you read the "Lexington" narrative? Can you send me a URL?
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Post by wkw99 on Mar 6, 2015 12:24:03 GMT -6
Winona's house sold. If they stay in Lexington they'll have to go somewhere else.
Yost seems to indicate in the Forbes article that Miami is still the end game.
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Post by ripetebook on Mar 6, 2015 14:40:02 GMT -6
Tried to locate link...no luck. Maybe I just dreamed it. But reading it they said Raylan has the chance to get it all. And she is a Kentucky girl as much as Raylan is all Kentucky boy. I pray he gets to live and at least have the chance for that future. He shows such promise as Willa's doting daddy. Much of those scenes felt adlibbed and were great,
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Post by justifiedceo on Mar 6, 2015 15:04:35 GMT -6
WKW and RIPE,
Fearing that I maybe the sappiest man in history .... although not having some kind of TO man-crush, I have internalized RG so much. I think if a man is honest, he can see parts of RG inside himself.
We are all shaped by our childhoods. Our frustrated first need to meet our father's expectations. Then our need to better ourselves from him.
We all have only one true love in our life. She is our equal. In every way. But we secretly know, that love and work, puts all of that at risk.
The rekindling between RG and Winona did make me cry.
I internalized all of RG's nights of trying to drown his pain and loss at the bar and with trying to find female substitutes. I internalized all of his - I am not going to show you I care because I don't want to get hurt - first conversations with Winona. And I internalized Winona's unconditional love and what that means to flawed men like myself.
Which is all to say ... that that image HAS to be a foreshadowing. I understand it might not go the way I want. But where RG/Me starts and ends .... is not easily separated.
Secretly I am afraid of the last episode. To lose my internalized character is one thing. But to have his hopes and dreams dashed - into forever land ... well I don't think I will ever be able to dare internalizing a show again.
JC
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Post by wkw99 on Mar 6, 2015 16:46:30 GMT -6
JC...no worries. My husband just binge-watched SOA (Sons of Anarchy). He's not a motorcycle guy...just a regular joe-golf-pro...but he was incredibly invested and moved by Jax's journey and his desire to protect his boys. We women know that most men are gooey saps at heart. We just pretend not to know so as not to bruise your fragile egos. Honestly, I don't know what I will do without this show, either. Losing Raylan and the gang that I've grown to love during these six years is really too sad to contemplate. Not to mention all of y'all that I've 'met' because of this wonderful show. Now who's sappy?
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Post by justifiedceo on Mar 6, 2015 19:15:53 GMT -6
WKW, Few quick thoughts - 1. SOA. It's hard to give up two of your best shows in one year. SOA was my fall and Justified was my spring. And luckily Fargo was my spring/summer. 2. SOA. Most popular boy name now? Jax . SOA also showed a journey of a man flawed by his past and trying to get out. Personally I identified him more as Boyd. If SOA was a show of the anti-hero; then Justified is a show of the hero. My only complaint was comparing it to Justified. While Justified's background music is subtle (just love the simple piano sounds when something is serious); SOA had more irritating montages. While Justified has the highest kill rate per bullet; SOA had the least. But the ending ... it was, in my opinion ... a egotistical opera ending by KS. Not sure if you have heard of the group "My Chemical Romance" and their hit song "Parade". Check it out on Youtube. The finale matched their operatic "parade". 3. You are so right. Women are stronger than men. They know we repress our emotions. And pretend to not notice. 4. It's not sappy on our part. A 6 year show we love. Regardless of the ending ... we fear the ending. 5. It was so great that you reached out to me - to remember to use this forum. I see - from the old FX board - some of our friends. I think RIPE was there. I know you were there. And I see occasionally Dolphin. Where are the rest? Either way, this forum and the old forum were half the fun. And it's not mushy to say - not only will the show ending being depressing - but so will missing you and the regulars! JC
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Post by wkw99 on Mar 6, 2015 20:55:59 GMT -6
Wasn't SOA supposed to be Hamlet? I didn't watch except for the episodes with Walton as Venus and the finale, but that seems to fit with what I've read...Clay and Gemma killing Jax father and all. Sutter seems a bit self-important. Yost is much more relatable.
I was at FX, so were dolphin, riptebook, MCM, mondayschild, okey dokey, and book person. I think mare and lovesjustified were there, too. So, most of us. West Texas was there, too....but he's dropped off the radar.
Hopefully we can use this site to stay in touch when justified ends.
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