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Post by mondayschild on Aug 17, 2013 22:13:21 GMT -6
I thought that this episode was when things really started getting meaty. In the first three eps, we saw Raylan reconnecting with Ava, and with the people that he had deep connections with before: Boyd and Winona. He has hooked up again with Art. And he is getting to know his co-workers. We saw him doing a lot of marshal business.
"The Lord of War and Thunder" gets really personal. This is the first time that we meet the two people who had the most impact on Raylan before he left home (Helen, who was more of a mother to him than Frances was able to be, and Arlo, who was a really crappy father. I don't agree that Arlo was kinder and gentler in this episode than he was later. He may not have tried to double cross Raylan or kill him, but we do see a man who is out of control and violent. He sets up Stan Perkins and robs him of $75,000. And Raylan is his pawn. Except that he underestimates Raylan's ability to see him for who he is and what he is capable of. Raylan really loves Helen, so it is sad to see how things play out, with her being Arlo's helper in setting Stan up for a drug bust. Am I the only one who wonders what Arlo does with all of his ill-gotten gains? He got a lot of money out of this caper, but they can't even afford a phone at chez Givens?
Arlo has not one whit of love for Raylan. He will use him in any way that he can. Raylan KNOWS this, and yet we see how he tucks Arlo into bed and listens to his story about his own unnatural upbringing. It's only when Raylan figures out what Arlo and Helen have done that he gets tough with Arlo. And he's not too happy with Helen, either. But he knows that Helen loves him. He will find it easier to forgive her. He has Arlo's number. Arlo will never change, and now we have the luxury of knowing what lies ahead.
I like the way Johnny Crowder was introduced. The baseball thing told us more about Raylan's youthful years in Harlan. And the scene at Helen's old house when he tells Stan about how he came there as a boy was heartbreaking for me because that was the only place where Raylan seems to have felt happy. (Watching this again, I made note of the fact that this is Helen's Indian Line property that came into play in the negotiations with the coal company in season 2.) Sometimes I am so dense. In season 2 I just thought "OH, Helen owns property in her own name." When Arlo called the cops he referred to Indian Line Road. A light bulb came on in this dim brain.
Anyway, I thought this was a really great episode. Really full of the past and present. It told us a lot.
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Post by Dolphin on Aug 17, 2013 23:54:02 GMT -6
That is an excellent question. What has Arlo done with all the money he's accumulated from his many scams and schemes over the years? We know he buries a lot in the yard. But don't you think Raylan or the Marshal Service would have looked into that by now?
He never looked like he had any money. Guess he didn't want to call any attention to himself. But excellent question.
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Post by wkw99 on Aug 18, 2013 4:48:43 GMT -6
The house on Indian Line Road is also the one in S3 set up as the fake doctor's office for the oxy operation, if I'm not mistaken.
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Post by motorcitymade on Aug 18, 2013 9:24:10 GMT -6
I'd say, "Hey can you take a look at my sprinklers?" Then blast the water on him from head to toe.
"Ohhh...you're all wet. Here, give me those clothes and I'd throw them in the dryer. Here's a towel."
A verryyy verrry small towel, girls. Verrrry small. Heh heh heh heh.
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Post by mare27 on Aug 18, 2013 10:59:56 GMT -6
thanks for this image now in my head...love this! You made me smile!
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Post by Dolphin on Aug 18, 2013 16:10:30 GMT -6
The house on Indian Line Road is also the one in S3 set up as the fake doctor's office for the oxy operation, if I'm not mistaken. Arlo's history of criminal activity makes me think ... Soooo ... with Arlo's money hiding history, it's possible that the money Helen gave Raylan to leave Harlan for a better life was money made by 'ill gotten gains?' I mean, where would Helen have gotten any money back then? From Arlo?
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Post by weegieburd on Aug 18, 2013 17:11:50 GMT -6
But she wasn't married to Arlo at the time....I can't see him giving his "hard earned" cash away, unless she stole it from him.
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Post by mondayschild on Aug 18, 2013 17:55:57 GMT -6
Arlo is so low. He even dug up the money Helen had buried in the suitcase in Frances' garden. It must be a family tradition. Raylan says that Arlo probably buried Stan's money someplace.
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Post by mare27 on Aug 18, 2013 21:14:03 GMT -6
Today I watched "the Collection." Oh my gosh, best look yet at TO's bod! OMG. had to rewind that opening a couple of times... TO looked great in this with jacket and tie, as well. The crime of the week-Didn't care much for Mr. or Mrs. Carnes and their story, but I liked Raylan's purple and black plaid shirt a lot. Enjoyed Raylan's visit to gary's office too. I loved Raylan and Winona's conversation near the end..."Why'd you leave me? " and " first you ever said..." Nice! Loved their subtle expressions thru out...but what was with her hair in that scene? It was so much prettier, softer in episode 2, when she stormed out of the elevator. Liked the opening and closing scenes with Boyd thru the visitor's window. I may watch this again tonight, just to enjoy another look at that swimmer's body..oh my!
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Post by Dolphin on Aug 19, 2013 9:07:23 GMT -6
Mare27, that make me want to watch 'The Colletion' all the more.
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Post by Dolphin on Aug 19, 2013 9:08:47 GMT -6
But she wasn't married to Arlo at the time....I can't see him giving his "hard earned" cash away, unless she stole it from him. That's what I was thinking. I guess it depends on when she started thinking like Arlo. Which we don't know and can only imagine.
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Post by Dolphin on Aug 19, 2013 9:13:15 GMT -6
Arlo is so low. He even dug up the money Helen had buried in the suitcase in Frances' garden. It must be a family tradition. Raylan says that Arlo probably buried Stan's money someplace. I didn't remember that about money buried in Helen's garden. Wow. Arlo probably thought that since he was married to Frances, whatever was hers was his. And whatever was his was his. And whatever he stole was his.
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Post by Dolphin on Aug 19, 2013 9:16:00 GMT -6
But she wasn't married to Arlo at the time....I can't see him giving his "hard earned" cash away, unless she stole it from him. Do we know the timeline of when Helen married Arlo? I don't recall knowing exactly when ... how old Raylan was. How long after (or before) Helen died?
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Post by weegieburd on Aug 19, 2013 9:32:28 GMT -6
I don'r know but I am assuming that he never went to the wedding and that it was after he had left Harlan.
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Post by Dolphin on Aug 19, 2013 11:32:15 GMT -6
I don'r know but I am assuming that he never went to the wedding and that it was after he had left Harlan. That would make sense. Do we know about when that was? Year or age of Raylan? LOL Can you tell I need more back story? hehehe The writers need to throw us a bone.
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Post by weegieburd on Aug 19, 2013 12:12:11 GMT -6
I know....we have to dig deep and make a few assumptions which may or may not be correct. My thoughts are that he dug coal with Boyd when he was 18, Helen gave him the money to get out of Harlan and go to college, so he must have been about 19 and he has never been back. I don't know when Frances died, it's on the gravestone, but I got the impression that he hadn't even been back for her funeral and definitely NOT for Arlo and Helen's wedding.....he said to consider the bail money as a belated wedding present. Let's hope we have the gaps filled in in the upcoming seasons!
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Post by Dolphin on Aug 19, 2013 13:04:11 GMT -6
I know....we have to dig deep and make a few assumptions which may or may not be correct. My thoughts are that he dug coal with Boyd when he was 18, Helen gave him the money to get out of Harlan and go to college, so he must have been about 19 and he has never been back. I don't know when Frances died, it's on the gravestone, but I got the impression that he hadn't even been back for her funeral and definitely NOT for Arlo and Helen's wedding.....he said to consider the bail money as a belated wedding present. Let's hope we have the gaps filled in in the upcoming seasons! Not that this is a reliable source (I don't know if it is or not), but according to Justified Wiki, Helen died in 2000 when Raylan was 30 years old. The blogger said this is according to her tombstone that was shown in "The Lord of War and Thunder" (15:50). I can't check out my video (stupid internet traffic), but I'll have to verify on my own as soon as I can get into Amazon. justified.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:ChibaDog/Frances_GivensUPDATE: I checked and her dates are 1949 to 2000 on her tombstone (17:00 on my Amazon video). And yes, Raylan was born in 1970.
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Post by weegieburd on Aug 19, 2013 15:10:04 GMT -6
The 2000 sounds familiar, I never got the impression that Helen raised Raylan but that she was there when Frances was "indisposed" which could have been for fairly long periods of time. So Frances was still around for about 10 years after Raylan left.
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Post by Dolphin on Aug 19, 2013 16:09:21 GMT -6
The 2000 sounds familiar, I never got the impression that Helen raised Raylan but that she was there when Frances was "indisposed" which could have been for fairly long periods of time. So Frances was still around for about 10 years after Raylan left. It's interesting to piece this together, even though the writers haven't.
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exdusm
Junior Member
Posts: 89
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Post by exdusm on Aug 19, 2013 20:26:04 GMT -6
Great idea to have a reviewing of the episodes. I have really enjoyed reading the thoughts and opinions here, as I was not around originally in real time to discuss seasons 1&2. I have not had the time to rewatch nor to be online this summer as I planned, but I hope I can catch up. Greetings to newer members(new since I was last here!) and old-timey (not your age, LOL)members. Hope you are all well and enjoying these waning days of summer. Two weeks to Labor Day, WTF happened to the time?
Sorry for the length, but sometimes I have to get it all down while it it still fresh in my mind. The Lord of War and Thunder is an excellent episode, in my top 5; well-constructed, establishing for me that Justified had the best writing on TV. I was hooked after the 1st ep intro, but this ep was so surprising, entertaining, 'meaty' and different from anything I'd seen before on TV that I had to find a message board at that point. It neatly 'marries' the Deputy and the man in an organic manner. The subplot is a clever reversal, albeit tangentially, of Raylan's story. A criminal father risking freedom to be with family; a wife risking hers to keep them all together in an ultimately unsustainable, eventually unhealthy living situation. In the space of 40-45 minutes, we learn so much about Raylan, his kin and childhood(so much so that it is painful when we realize how much more we don't really know!). Thoughts:
Helen could not have had enough $$ to sustain Raylan (tuition, room, board, expenses) on her own, definitely not over the few years of college. Sure she could threaten Arlo to get $$ every now and then. My fanfic fantasy is that a goodly lump sum of the money Helen acquired to get Raylan out of Harlan came from Mags Bennett. Mags had to acknowledge (begrudgingly) that Dickie struck the first serious blow. Yet she still could not accept what Raylan did to Dickie and could not let it go unpunished. That would not fit with her reputation, her standing among kin, community, and not even her enemies. It would be expected of her and it is the way of life: feuding and revenge and putting bodies in the ground. The only way to save face by not extracting maiming or deadly revenge (for surely if she did not instigate it, someone would on her behalf, fairness not being part of the equation) would be to exile Raylan. It would make Raylan happy, but depriving Helen of her boy would be her price and punishment in kind. Ironically, it would not matter who asked or who offered the money first; Mags wins either way.
It is disturbing that Raylan did not return for his mother's burial; not for her if she were sick or suffering (emotionally?). That would have to be a weight on his sense of manhood. As well, he did not return to see Aunt Helen. Indeed, she had not heard from him for some time, and it is clear he may not have contacted her for some time after arriving in Kentucky. The expression or the shape of the love between them is hard to define. Is it more just about deep gratitude and affection for someone who provided safety and comfort and salvation. There is no physicality, but that may just be the way of things in Harlan culture. It seems at times that Helen values Arlo's feelings more than Raylan's: "..Oh, what do you think he's done now..". It is clear that snipe-n-snark is typical of their communication. There is a lot of anger and irritability in Raylan in his communication with Helen. My sense is that when he was young, they expressed love in acts and the conferring of things: TV, games, ice cream, fantasy play, comfort and safety. (Art 'saved my life'; Dan clearly looked after him.) Perhaps Helen felt constraint in overt affection for fear of antagonizing Frances. Perhaps there was competition among them at one time, not only for Raylan, but also for Arlo (be careful what you wish for).
Isn't it somewhat unsettling that this very intelligent and resourceful man could not even conceive of a way to get himself out of Harlan/The Mines? I find it very disturbing. How damaged was he when he left? What sustained him? What do you guys make of this?
Maybe Raylan harbors anger at his mother that he cannot admit. There is not much evidence that he loved his mother as much as he loves/cherishes her memory, her 'ways' and the childhood comforts she may have provided. She loved him in her fashion (and we do not know anything of their experience together). We infer things about the relationship, but Raylan has not spoken of her (refresh my memory if he has; he has mentioned her sayings and some acts, but nothing about their relationship. He cannot when Limehouse mentions her.
I think the scene of Raylan settling the old man appears gentle but I sensed it was controlled anger. Rote. Maybe even an expression of the angry boy still inside who had to drag Arlo home on more than one occasion (Helen's and/or Frances' insistence), clean him up and put him to couch or bed in spite of his resentment. Raylan could have easily have called a nurse into the room. It was not IMO a conscious decision to be gentle. Abusive relationships can alter behavior such that the abused often engages in behavior not only to survive but also due to a false belief that it will mollify, calm, pacify or please the abuser and lead to the sunnier times. Arlo must have the gift of charm and gab (recall how the prisoners gather round him to hear his tales; how he talks to the suicidal soldier in a much later ep; how he charms the nurses; etc).
I was reading an autobiography of a former Navy SEAL who suffered horrific, almost daily physical abuse as a child, but in his mind it became a character-building act, which over time shaped his thinking the abuse being a positive, transformative experience, ultimately responsible for his success through SEAL training. I need to go back to find the quotes he used and share it. It made me think about Raylan. Only going by Raylan's version, there is not much evidence that Arlo physically abused Raylan as much as he used psychological torture/abuse as a form of control. Perhaps both Helen and Frances threatened to blow Arlo away if he laid a hand on the boy. Perhaps it is because Raylan ran to his mother as a young child but later learned to 'read' the atmosphere and escape. Not even Boyd mentions suggests that Raylan suffered physical abuse, only that Raylan must have suffered in the watching- and feeling helpless- when a drunken Arlo pushed Frances around. How much hurt and guilt is buried with those memories, particularly of being and/or feeling ineffectual?
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Post by Dolphin on Aug 19, 2013 21:25:12 GMT -6
Hey, exdusm!! Welcome back!! Do like you just did ... join in any time you have a chance. That would be great. Yes, Raylan's early life is great for fanfiction. I come from a Southern family, and I'm the one who moved away from the family tree and re-established much healthier roots, elsewhere. My kids have never been raised around my family of origin. We would go back and visit my parents and siblings every few years, and I would have to explain that it was like 'going back in time' and 'old ideas the no longer work today will have to die off.' I knew there were things they didn't understand: Prejudice, sexism, ignorance, putting heads in the sand as if family skeletons never happened (don't have to be Southern to experience that one), equating love with money or 'what have you done for me lately' ... just to name a few. There's a family situation occurring with my kids' generation of my family, as I write ... repeated from previous generations. So, this has been a topic of conversation at my house, just within the past few days. It's sad. It's predictable. And it all starts with ignorance and not knowing any other way of life. I totally relate to Raylan leaving Harlan, not wanting to go back, and not re-establishing family ties that don't work now, and really didn't work then ... at least not for him. It is very difficult to reconcile family definitions of love and honor that have nothing to do with love and honor, but of 'What do I get if I do?' That line represents a mentality I also know, all too well ... Giving only to get. Like Raylan, I turned my back on that and on justifying wrong by making excuses (much as Mags did for Dickie and Couver). He understands Harlan, and that's why he's such an asset to the Marshal Service. But you can't go home.
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Post by mare27 on Aug 19, 2013 22:39:33 GMT -6
hey exdusm...enjoyed your "essay" on the Lord of War and Thunder...lots of interesting insights...you have thought about this way more than I have, I think I'll watch it again, now that you've given me some new angles to think about. Thanks. (a new member since May of this year, having fun here!)
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andiiv
Full Member
Chitty Chitty Gang Bang
Posts: 209
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Post by andiiv on Aug 20, 2013 7:20:00 GMT -6
Today I watched "the Collection." Oh my gosh, best look yet at TO's bod! OMG. had to rewind that opening a couple of times... I may watch this again tonight, just to enjoy another look at that swimmer's body..oh my! Sorry to be shallow, in light of that last in-depth post, but I feel this is necessary as a reminder to us all: and that 'swimmer's bod': Phew!!
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Post by ripetebook on Aug 20, 2013 7:54:59 GMT -6
to digress: Everyone kept asking Raylan if he'd seen his father...how was seeing his father, etc. We did get a hint...we just could not fathom such an evil man. As to the money....maybe supporting two homes...Givens house and the Indian Line...he needed funds. Plus he did get involved in so much crime...maybe he lost money in his criminal empire...remember he tells Beau he lost the money...but with Arlo...heck it could be buried under poor Frances. With him anything is possible.
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Post by ripetebook on Aug 20, 2013 7:59:08 GMT -6
Raylan left when he was 19...and Arlo after Helen died said his life with her(15 years) were the best of his life. They were in Dickie's house and shortly after...Raylan arrested Arlo. So that means maybe Raylan was like 25 and long gone when Arlo and Helen hooked up...she was around for Frances and when Frances passed...Helen fell for Arlo. Just sorting out what we heard...we know it is sort of all over the place.
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