superglue
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Fangirling over TO since he dropped his pants on Conan.
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Post by superglue on May 19, 2016 10:39:32 GMT -6
Jeez, that's established one-and-half seasons later? That is an oversight indeed. It was probably addressed in season 5, I just can't remember which episodes! Having just watched it, I can tell you it wasn't! Just finished the series - agghhhh so good!! I almost cried at the end. The thank you notes to Harlan and Elmore Leonard were so sweet. I'm mad I only now watched it but at least I got to be spoiled and watch it all at once. I just ordered the complete series on DVD for the extras and commentary - I never do that! The great rewatch begins soon. I am still annoyed and in disbelief that Winona would leave Raylan after all that. Whatever!
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Post by coco13 on May 19, 2016 12:34:49 GMT -6
Thanks for the R&W gifs! I love that episode I'm disappointed with how things turned out for them in the finale. After everything we saw of them over the six seasons and declarations like 'I'm done pretending I could ever feel about anyone else the way I feel about you' and 'you can be with me and still be you' - I feel the introduction of the Richard character was a disservice to Winona. It seems to me that they wanted to bring the story full circle back to the pilot & as Winona was married to somebody else in the pilot she finished the series married to somebody else.
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superglue
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Fangirling over TO since he dropped his pants on Conan.
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Post by superglue on May 19, 2016 13:15:48 GMT -6
Thanks for the R&W gifs! I love that episode I'm disappointed with how things turned out for them in the finale. After everything we saw of them over the six seasons and declarations like 'I'm done pretending I could ever feel about anyone else the way I feel about you' and 'you can be with me and still be you' - I feel the introduction of the Richard character was a disservice to Winona. It seems to me that they wanted to bring the story full circle back to the pilot & as Winona was married to somebody else in the pilot she finished the series married to somebody else. Yes! That quote about pretending - so at the end she's pretending again? Again, massive eye roll. I agree, I think they wanted to leave it so Raylan didn't get a completely happy ending. I love the GIFs - God bless the tumblristas who make these! I watched that makeout scene about five times. Sigh.
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Post by ripetebook on May 19, 2016 13:50:34 GMT -6
Can I go back to that scene with Sutter in season five when Sutter tells Raylan about the time he was separated from his own kids and how in the end he almost was happy when he could not make the weekend trip to see them...that it tore him apart to leave them....this as Raylan is debating the visit to see Willa and Winona. That when Winona left Kentucky (second leaving Raylan after she was pregnant)and went to Miami. Just how many times can a man take being left before he learns to guard his heart!!!!!!! He loves her deeply and she just breaks his heart over and over...yes he is a fool to love her but truth...he does love her...he may dally with various ladies but never when she is in his life....they meet his physical needs...Winona meets all the rest. It makes the badass Raylan so very human.....
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superglue
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Fangirling over TO since he dropped his pants on Conan.
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Post by superglue on May 19, 2016 14:50:26 GMT -6
Can I go back to that scene with Sutter in season five when Sutter tells Raylan about the time he was separated from his own kids and how in the end he almost was happy when he could not make the weekend trip to see them...that it tore him apart to leave them....this as Raylan is debating the visit to see Willa and Winona. That when Winona left Kentucky (second leaving Raylan after she was pregnant)and went to Miami. Just how many times can a man take being left before he learns to guard his heart!!!!!!! He loves her deeply and she just breaks his heart over and over...yes he is a fool to love her but truth...he does love her...he may dally with various ladies but never when she is in his life....they meet his physical needs...Winona meets all the rest. It makes the badass Raylan so very human..... Yup. This was my impression too. And the part where he asks her why she left him is very real to me. I've known guys like that - they are so hurt by the ending of the relationship that they just shut down and withdraw, unlike women who will analyze it to death with their friends/family/therapist/Timothy Olyphant message board. This is such a positive place to talk about the show - after I bingewatched Lost I posted my impressions on IMDB and got attacked by people claiming I was a troll! Some people refused to believe me that I had watched it so fast and that I was a troll because I thought Jack was boring (even though my account is like 10 years old).
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Post by ripetebook on May 19, 2016 15:33:17 GMT -6
That show and the fine performances from everyone with accent on Timothy and Walton is likely why this forum came to be. Watch it again and trust me you will see things you missed the first time. We all have likely seen each episode a dozen times and will still discover a look, a word or something that changes the initial impression from the what you now see. Plus sharing impressions here opens us each up....call it our Justified therapy. We share impressions and see new aspects...even a year after that last beautiful scene in the prison...."we dug coal" what a moving yet subtle ending.
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superglue
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Fangirling over TO since he dropped his pants on Conan.
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Post by superglue on May 19, 2016 15:47:45 GMT -6
That show and the fine performances from everyone with accent on Timothy and Walton is likely why this forum came to be. Watch it again and trust me you will see things you missed the first time. We all have likely seen each episode a dozen times and will still discover a look, a word or something that changes the initial impression from the what you now see. Plus sharing impressions here opens us each up....call it our Justified therapy. We share impressions and see new aspects...even a year after that last beautiful scene in the prison...."we dug coal" what a moving yet subtle ending. So glad this forum was born! And it's not full of crazy stalkers either but just respectful fans who appreciate the man and his performances. I already started watching season one again - I think I didn't pay much attention to the pilot because half of it was new. This time I'll watch slower and not while I'm working. I obsessively rewatch my favorite shows for that very reason, and I rarely get hooked on new shows, maybe one a year. DVD boxed set is on the way. Can't wait to listen to the commentary.
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Post by ripetebook on May 24, 2016 12:02:19 GMT -6
whenever I am having a bad day I go to one of my many favorite episodes...watching Timothy as Raylan is a pure treat. He says so much with just a look. Refer to episode five of season one..the end as Raylan stands in the front yard of his childhood home at those grave stones...in particular...his stone. OMG what emotions show!!!!
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sarad
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In love with TO since Jennifer Garner slapped his face.
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Post by sarad on May 26, 2016 4:14:34 GMT -6
The scene I go back to over and over is in Season 4 where Art tells Raylan Arlo has been stabbed and probably won't make it through the night. The way that Raylan wipes a tear from the corner of his eye as if there's a speck of dust, and then downplays the situation to Tim and Drew Thompson's wife/widow, saying a prisoner has been stabbed but not mentioning it's his father. It's so emotional yet tightly restrained.
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Post by ripetebook on May 26, 2016 23:52:58 GMT -6
Good choice. Timothy made the badass deputy very human and even vulnerable. Some of the best are those times after Winona has left him and that look of love that just never ends. Like in the finale as she walks away and they focus on him...and we know nothing ended for him...he will love her forever!!!!!!!
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superglue
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Fangirling over TO since he dropped his pants on Conan.
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Post by superglue on May 27, 2016 21:07:59 GMT -6
There are so many great episodes and TO is immaculate as Raylan, but what slays me is how fantastic the peripheral actors are, and how drawn into their stories I get. Ellen May especially, who has relatively few scenes/lines, but I became so attached to. The scene where she is crying to the preacher that she's done "things" that are so bad even God couldn't forgive... wow, just heart-wrenching. And even Dewey Crowder, who was such an idiot/comic relief, at the end where he tells Boyd how he just wishes things could go back to how they used to be, I really felt for him.
I never thought I would ever find rednecks/hillbillies to be deep and appealing characters... the storytelling is just amazing. I can see why they got the Peabody.
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Post by ripetebook on May 28, 2016 8:20:42 GMT -6
One of my favs....the "growth" if you can call it....of Ava! From the needy husband killer wanting Raylan to the woman she was at the end. When she shot Boyd with Raylan watching....and escaped....and her escape was more for her son than anything!!!!! How children changed both Raylan and Ava! Makes me wonder if Boyd knew...would having a son change him!!!!!
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Post by motorcitymade on May 30, 2016 20:53:43 GMT -6
I couldn't believe he hadn't been to the birth. I thought when winona said "since you haven't done so yet, would you like to hold her?" she was just talking about THAT visit; mostly because my fantasy Raylan would never skip the birth. LOL.
I always was frustrated with the way winona was written. GY said their was a lot that they had to cut becuse of the 42 minute time constrait that might have made her more likeable.
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Post by coco13 on May 31, 2016 6:26:55 GMT -6
For me it comes down to one either connecting with a character or not, and for me Winona doesn't have to be more 'likeable' for that to happen. Other characters on the show have been shown to do a lot of morally questionable things - Ava, Boyd, Raylan etc - and I've seen them described as 'badasses' and Winona described as a 'nag' because she stands up for herself in her relationship with Raylan. All these characters have flaws and for me that's what makes them so enjoyable to watch.
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Post by ripetebook on May 31, 2016 11:36:42 GMT -6
When she said hold your daughter...I did think it was just the first time that moment! I recall they implied he was there at the birth....the name thing isn't jiffy or Palmolive so maybe he was awkward at that meeting! Watch the way he watches her/them when they Skype! And recall his discussion with Sutter about the visit. Raylan loved that child like he loved Winona....forever!!!!!
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superglue
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Fangirling over TO since he dropped his pants on Conan.
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Post by superglue on Jun 1, 2016 8:45:33 GMT -6
I don't think they implied he was there at the birth, or at least I don't remember it. I think the "hold your daughter" thing was meant to inform us that this was the first time he was actually meeting her; otherwise, why have a line like that?
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Post by ripetebook on Jun 1, 2016 9:25:14 GMT -6
Very good point. The classic "don't know shit about girls" gave us the first real insight into a very confused future daddy. Guess I believe he wanted to be there...likely work kept him away....the why was not really addressed!!!!!!
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superglue
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Fangirling over TO since he dropped his pants on Conan.
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Post by superglue on Jun 3, 2016 0:28:22 GMT -6
Very good point. The classic "don't know shit about girls" gave us the first real insight into a very confused future daddy. Guess I believe he wanted to be there...likely work kept him away....the why was not really addressed!!!!!! Yeah I was bitching about it earlier in this thread - his absence from his daughter's life was very out of place, especially considering how often he brought up his daughter to anyone who would listen. There was clearly something going on there with him, emotionally, not being able to actually get on a plane to go see her or even insist she fly up. Major issues there, probably fear of failing as a father or being somehow like Arlo, or thinking that once he was with her, he would be petrified of leaving her. It's all understandable with the character, so it is frustrating this was never actually stated and we're left to speculate... I've read a bunch of the EW postmortems etc but I would love to know if Graham Yost or anyone actually addressed this point. We can't be the only ones who thought it was weird. On the other hand that's seriously my only complaint about writing across six seasons so, that's I'll take it.
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Post by ripetebook on Jun 3, 2016 8:51:50 GMT -6
Oh I think they did address the issue many times over the six seasons! Every moment with arlo was clearly showing what made Raylan the man he is. The comparison of Boyd and Raylan and their similar Fathers again told us. His desire to be present at the doctor visits with Winona yet "work" pulled him away. The one safe place for Raylan was being marshal Givens! He wanted the baby...he wanted the marriage with Winona.....he got Willa and clearly at the end we see he got to be a loving father!!!! It was enough....look at how he lets Ava go free to raise her son..... Raylan's growth in this area was very clear!
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Post by coco13 on Jun 3, 2016 14:06:50 GMT -6
On reading Graham Yost's postmortems on episodes 4.13 'Ghosts' and 6.08 'Dark as a Dungeon' it doesn't seem that they ever planned on having Raylan interacting regularly with Winona and the baby.
From GY's postmortem on 'Ghosts' 4.13 EW.com "I would say that perhaps we didn’t have any plans for much of them together next season, but then when I saw that kiss, well, I don’t know. It’s up to Natalie’s availability. They’re just so good together.
Will the baby be born next season? It is our expectation that we would see little Raylette or Raylene born in season 5".
So even with GY saying that the baby was expected to be born in season 5, it didn't seem like they planned to have the baby or Winona feature much, even after a pregnancy lasting 3 seasons!
From GY's postmortem on 'Dark as a Dungeon' 6.08 Yahoo.com "It was a real swing for the fences, and there is that sense in our final year that we’re going to do things that we haven’t done before because what the hell — they’re not going to cancel the show, and we think it’s right. So like last week, to have an episode that was primarily about the relationships of Boyd and Ava and Raylan and Winona, we can do that. We can show Raylan with the baby."
One of the things I missed in the later seasons was the glimpses we used to get of Raylan's familial relationships - Helen was gone by season 2, Arlo by season 4 and Winona and Willa were all but absent for seasons 5 & 6.
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Post by ripetebook on Jun 3, 2016 15:40:39 GMT -6
Natalie had made other commitments so fitting in the love story became impossible! But I so recall that kiss at the end of season four.....that was the reason for her season six in the Hunt! When she again accepts him for who he is....then the finale and again she has broken his heart....but Timothy knocked those emotions with subtle and moving eye contact. That last look at her as she walks away!!!! And her classic line about how Willa plays him when in fact it is Winona is the one who plays him!
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Post by coco13 on Jun 3, 2016 16:21:08 GMT -6
Natalie had made other commitments so fitting in the love story became impossible! But I so recall that kiss at the end of season four.....that was the reason for her season six in the Hunt! When she again accepts him for who he is....then the finale and again she has broken his heart....but Timothy knocked those emotions with subtle and moving eye contact. That last look at her as she walks away!!!! And her classic line about how Willa plays him when in fact it is Winona is the one who plays him! I don't think it had anything to do with Natalie's availability, I think it was a story decision to keep Raylan single so he could hookup with a new love interest each season and also have Winona in the background until they wanted to bring that relationship to the fore as needed. From Graham Yost's postmortem of 'The Hunt' - Yahoo.com
"Having Raylan with a wife and playing that story all six years would have been difficult. So it’s been wonderful to have this sort of contentious, but very alluring relationship."
AND
Graham Yost on the finale 'The Promise' - EW.com
"And Raylan didn’t end up getting back together with Winona, which I guess is not a surprise.
It’s not. In episode 7 they give each other a 50-50 shot, or as he puts it, “51-49 just to be generous,” and those are pretty even odds. And the thing in Elmore is people end up doing the same thing over and over again. I like the idea that Raylan and Winona will probably always be in some version of this dance. I remember when [producer] Fred Golan saw the cut of the episode. When Raylan’s watching her walk away, he said, “Oh, they’re still sleeping together.” I don’t believe they are at this point, but they’re always going to love each other, they just can’t live together. And then it was a nice treat and really a sweet gesture from Jason Gedrick to agree to play the part of her new husband. We worked together years ago on Boomtown and we’ve stayed in touch over the time."
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Post by ripetebook on Jun 3, 2016 22:42:35 GMT -6
I had not read the thing from Fred Golan...it makes perfect sense! She always initiates the hook-up and the end! And yet he never fights it! His various lady per season fit Raylan....the exception is Winona!!
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superglue
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Post by superglue on Jun 4, 2016 0:50:45 GMT -6
damn for some reason I thought the postmortems only went through season 5!!! They're unfortunately not listed clearly on EW - that was such a good scoop, they should make them more visible. Oh I think they did address the issue many times over the six seasons! Every moment with arlo was clearly showing what made Raylan the man he is. The comparison of Boyd and Raylan and their similar Fathers again told us. His desire to be present at the doctor visits with Winona yet "work" pulled him away. The one safe place for Raylan was being marshal Givens! He wanted the baby...he wanted the marriage with Winona.....he got Willa and clearly at the end we see he got to be a loving father!!!! It was enough....look at how he lets Ava go free to raise her son..... Raylan's growth in this area was very clear! Yeah it was obvious he had the issues, but by addressing it, I mean someone calling him out on it and the show addressing what was happening. "Your daughter is six months old and you've never met her. WTF is wrong with you Raylan?" Believe me, if I were Art/Rachel/Tim, this would be the primary topic of conversation. I just don't buy that someone as tough as Winona would be that patient about it. He should have gotten on a plane the minute her labor started or already been there before her due date. It took until halfway into the sixth season to even establish that he had never even held his daughter yet. Before she's born, Raylan's desperate for money to take care of her, and at the end of season 5, he can't wait to move to Miami and is clearly enthralled with his daughter, but he's never even been to see her?! And Winona is super cool with it? I understand kids are a pain on sets, but it could have been resolved by sticking in a picture of Raylan holding his daughter taped to his computer. Then we'd understand, OK, he's met her, he's just not with her because of his issues. And also would have been nice it was mentioned that he was financially supporting Winona and Willa so Winona did not have to work. I'm assuming he was, but I just have to assume. Anyway more rehashing my previous complaint. I've never read Elmore Leonard's Raylan books, so I don't know if this was taken from there. I know he has two kids in the books but is the situation similar? Are they little and is he estranged from them/mom?
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Post by ripetebook on Jun 5, 2016 12:35:32 GMT -6
Can we play Sutter speech once more! Raylan wanted her but not just to visit...he wants to be her dad and in the end he was daddy in all the ways he could. I am not convinced he missed the birth....rose colored glasses as I am.
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