superglue
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Fangirling over TO since he dropped his pants on Conan.
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Post by superglue on May 16, 2016 15:43:19 GMT -6
I know, I'm preaching to the choir, but I just started watching it and I'm hooked. Almost done with season three. The only good thing about being a dork and not seeing it until now is of course I can bingewatch the whole thing. (I didn't see Lost till this year either! ha ha same deal, bingewatched the hell out of that.)
Everything in the show is just stellar. The only thing that really bugs me is I find it so absurdly unbelievable that Winona would repeatedly leave Raylan. As if! Especially considering the jerk she married. Not just unbelievable because TO is sex on toast, but because Raylan is so awesome to boot. It's not like he's a drunk or beats her or cheats on her or even treats her badly in any way. Did I miss something? He's an amazing heroic lawman who is completely loyal to her and in love with her, but she just doesn't like his job and that's why she can't be with him? Again... AS IF! That's the only part that doesn't make sense to me. I seriously want to slap some sense into her.
BTW my newfound TO adoration comes from his latest appearance on Conan... I love funny men and Conan is a god. I'm a hardcore fan and usually watch almost all the episodes, but I guess I missed most of the TO appearances. I had no idea Conan had such a bromance going on. TO seriously needs his own segment on the show.
anyway I'm doing cartwheels over this show's greatness... back to watching! Damn you Winona!
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Post by coco13 on May 16, 2016 16:32:00 GMT -6
Winona is my favorite character! I think I remember reading an interview with NZ and she mentioned that it was important to TO to have the conflict in the relationship. I think the writers had the on again/off again nature of their relationship for the drama - they could keep Winona on the backburner & have Raylan also be involved in other relationships.
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Post by ripetebook on May 16, 2016 23:36:39 GMT -6
If you recall the books.... Raylan and Winona had an ugly loveless marriage. The show gave us so much more!!!!! Yeah I agree with super glue.....what is Winona's issue? Everytime they got close...she ran off. And yet she is also the one who started things. Season one she came to his room and bed! And when they decided to raise Willa she offered he could be him and be with her....yet in the end...she once again left him. And Yost hints they likely came together one more time after the end of Justified!!!!
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superglue
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Fangirling over TO since he dropped his pants on Conan.
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Post by superglue on May 17, 2016 2:34:27 GMT -6
If you recall the books.... Raylan and Winona had an ugly loveless marriage. The show gave us so much more!!!!! Yeah I agree with super glue.....what is Winona's issue? Everytime they got close...she ran off. And yet she is also the one who started things. Season one she came to his room and bed! And when they decided to raise Willa she offered he could be him and be with her....yet in the end...she once again left him. And Yost hints they likely came together one more time after the end of Justified!!!! LOL I guess I know what happens at the end now
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Post by ripetebook on May 17, 2016 11:39:13 GMT -6
Oops!!!!! Should I have done a spoiler alert?
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Post by wkw99 on May 17, 2016 15:31:52 GMT -6
Winona is my favorite character! I think I remember reading an interview with NZ and she mentioned that it was important to TO to have the conflict in the relationship. I think the writers had the on again/off again nature of their relationship for the drama - they could keep Winona on the backburner & have Raylan also be involved in other relationships. NZ just mentioned recently how much SHE loved Winona and how happy she was that the writers took a risk and gave them a girl-child. Sigh. I miss Justified.
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Post by coco13 on May 17, 2016 16:00:40 GMT -6
Winona is my favorite character! I think I remember reading an interview with NZ and she mentioned that it was important to TO to have the conflict in the relationship. I think the writers had the on again/off again nature of their relationship for the drama - they could keep Winona on the backburner & have Raylan also be involved in other relationships. NZ just mentioned recently how much SHE loved Winona and how happy she was that the writers took a risk and gave them a girl-child. Sigh. I miss Justified. You & me both! Thankfully, we've got fanfiction. :-)
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superglue
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Fangirling over TO since he dropped his pants on Conan.
Posts: 1,349
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Post by superglue on May 17, 2016 17:11:54 GMT -6
Oops!!!!! Should I have done a spoiler alert? Or maybe in the future not reveal announce how it ends when someone posts they're halfway through a series... lol... Especially in this case when it's not really relevant as to why she would ever leave him (the point of my post). No biggie though, it's not like I'm going to stop watching! I appreciate your saying the book described them as having a loveless marriage (I haven't read them) but I don't think they conveyed that in the show, unless I missed it. And we know TO can play controlling jerks well - eg The Girl Next Door. But Raylan is just too awesome. I mean seriously.... Scientific odds of any sane woman leaving this man? 0.000.
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Post by wkw99 on May 17, 2016 19:15:27 GMT -6
Oops!!!!! Should I have done a spoiler alert? Or maybe in the future not reveal announce how it ends when someone posts they're halfway through a series... lol... Especially in this case when it's not really relevant as to why she would ever leave him (the point of my post). No biggie though, it's not like I'm going to stop watching! I appreciate your saying the book described them as having a loveless marriage (I haven't read them) but I don't think they conveyed that in the show, unless I missed it. And we know TO can play controlling jerks well - eg The Girl Next Door. But Raylan is just too awesome. I mean seriously.... Scientific odds of any sane woman leaving this man? 0.000. No doubt he's pretty, but the man is not without flaws. He consistently chooses his job, which he performs without regard to his own safety, over Winona. She is left wondering when she's going to get the knock on the door that every LEOs wife dreads. I don't blame her for leaving him, and I don't blame her for not being able to stay away. I love her and I love that she calls him on his shit. Others disagree. Welcome to The Great Winona Debate.
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superglue
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Fangirling over TO since he dropped his pants on Conan.
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Post by superglue on May 17, 2016 19:33:53 GMT -6
No doubt he's pretty, but the man is not without flaws. He consistently chooses his job, which he performs without regard to his own safety, over Winona. She is left wondering when she's going to get the knock on the door that every LEOs wife dreads. I don't blame her for leaving him, and I don't blame her for not being able to stay away. I love her and I love that she calls him on his shit. Others disagree. Welcome to The Great Winona Debate. It's not just his looks though - Raylan is awesome. I just don't see her leaving him simply because he is a LEO, which she knew when she married him. Then he was planning on going to Glynco and she left him, pregnant with no job, because he came home late? That to me seems so unlikely as to make no sense. Now that I'm in season 4 I see how he didn't go see the baby even though he was in Miami. That's the first time I remember thinking he was a jerk/selfish. But after three seasons I already think Winona has a screw loose, and I actually sympathized with him/rationalized that he did that probably because it will hurt him too much to have to leave.
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Post by wkw99 on May 18, 2016 3:38:19 GMT -6
Winona has a screw loose? Have you really been watching Raylan? LOL. Look at his father...How could he not be screwed up? I think the idea of fatherhood terrified Raylan. More than bullets from some outlaws gun. Yet he faces those all the time and he should have faced Winona and been there when that baby was born. I was/am terribly disappointed in him for that.
What do you think of Boyd and Ava? Which season is your favorite so far?
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Post by coco13 on May 18, 2016 5:26:06 GMT -6
Winona has a screw loose? Have you really been watching Raylan? LOL. Look at his father...How could he not be screwed up? I think the idea of fatherhood terrified Raylan. More than bullets from some outlaws gun. Yet he faces those all the time and he should have faced Winona and been there when that baby was born. I was/am terribly disappointed in him for that. What do you think of Boyd and Ava? Which season is your favorite so far? I think season 5 was a missed opportunity, it felt like they had Raylan dealing with his issues with fatherhood with everyone except Winona and the baby!
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superglue
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Fangirling over TO since he dropped his pants on Conan.
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Post by superglue on May 18, 2016 6:29:46 GMT -6
Winona has a screw loose? Have you really been watching Raylan? LOL. Look at his father...How could he not be screwed up? I think the idea of fatherhood terrified Raylan. More than bullets from some outlaws gun. Yet he faces those all the time and he should have faced Winona and been there when that baby was born. I was/am terribly disappointed in him for that. OK keep in my mind I've been bingewatching it for the first time ever, so it's a lot to absorb and I'm running on my first impressions... Also I've been watching it while I also work so in some cases I've just been listening to the dialogue, so I know there may have been subtle things I may have missed that I will catch when I rewatch it. No, Raylan doesn't seem massively screwed up! He seems like his messed up childhood has made him that much stronger and more driven. They really didn't do a good job of showing that he and Winona had a loveless marriage, as someone said it was in the book. He never cheated on her or did anything terrible... He was driven in his job but in marriage you have to learn to accept someone's flaws and love them despite of it. My impression is that he is massively in love with Winona and hurt that she left him, and in fact doesn't even understand why she left him to the point he had to ask her why. He doesn't seem deeply flawed in his character — he toes the line in his job but he's not corrupt or dirty, and being a badass is his strength. Yes he's thought about stealing money, for example, but he never actually did it, unlike Winona. I mean that was nuts. And even though Raylan is a horndog he isn't with a different woman every night or sleeping with hookers. He seems to actually want to be semi-serious with someone. I don't like Ava for Raylan so I much prefer her with Boyd. I feel sorry for her. She doesn't have the courage or education to pick up and start her life over in a brand new place. After her loser brother died, she hooked up with his psychopath brother! She is a badass herself but what a waste of a life. Everything seems like one big long season LOL. I'm almost done with the fifth season now - I remember reading in an interview with Graham Yost that there was backlash against season five but I don't know what that was about. I think it's pretty strong. I really like Kendal, maybe even more than Loretta. That kid who plays him is soooo crazy talented, he holds his own so well with seriously mature material to work with. I hate Wendy though but I can't stand Alicia Witt. She was absolutely awful on Law & Order: Criminal Intent and she's always bugged me. I liked Amy Smart's character a lot. This show is so different from the standard police procedurals with the crime of the week. It is almost like Breaking Bad in the way the supporting cast is so strong and their backstories so interesting. I mean, I'm completely invested with what is going on with Ellen May, who I thought would be a throwaway character we never saw again after her first appearance. And Jeremy Davies just slays as Dicky. When he popped up again in season five I was so excited. I actually went back and listened to his collect call message to Raylan twice because it was so funny. Wow is he talented. Definitely disappointed Raylan is not with his daughter — I wish they had done more to go into that. I mean, why isn't Winona leaving him angry voicemails telling him to get his butt down there?? Why isn't Art throwing "deadbeat dad" in Raylan's face when he's angry with him? Again that doesn't add up. Was Natalie Zea working on another series and not available for season five? I've seen the animated gifs of Raylan with his daughter so I know he does meet her, but it seems bizarre to me that this storyline went nowhere in season five... Is that what the backlash was about? OK back to season five finale.... Yay for bingewatching!
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superglue
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Fangirling over TO since he dropped his pants on Conan.
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Post by superglue on May 18, 2016 7:07:36 GMT -6
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Post by mondayschild on May 18, 2016 9:24:14 GMT -6
Welcome, superglue. Now you know why everyone here loves Justified. Wait until you see the series finale. It's one of the best I've ever seen.
Trust me, there have been many agreements and disagreements here about plot lines, characters, etc. But in the end, we all love the series. I've watched some of the episodes so many times that I think I have the dialogue memorized. While I agree with some of your character assessments, you didn't mention Mags? We all loved her, evil as she was. I loved the times that she showed her human side.
Let us know how you liked season six.
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superglue
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Fangirling over TO since he dropped his pants on Conan.
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Post by superglue on May 18, 2016 9:51:08 GMT -6
Welcome, superglue. Now you know why everyone here loves Justified. Wait until you see the series finale. It's one of the best I've ever seen. Trust me, there have been many agreements and disagreements here about plot lines, characters, etc. But in the end, we all love the series. I've watched some of the episodes so many times that I think I have the dialogue memorized. While I agree with some of your character assessments, you didn't mention Mags? We all loved her, evil as she was. I loved the times that she showed her human side. Let us know how you liked season six. Oh yes, Mags was unbelievable. Margo Martindale is absolutely brilliant. So glad she got that Emmy. I was kind of disappointed Mags died because her brilliance was so incredible she could have been featured throughout. Maybe get shot or have a stroke and be stuck in a nursing home still being a badass like Tio Salamanca from Breaking Bad.There are so many awesome characters I can't even keep track. It's like a who's who of great character actors. Oh another thought that struck me was that I'm glad there was no romance storyline between Rachel and Raylan... that would have been so predictable to have between male and female coworkers/costars but the writers were above that. Erica Tazel is cute as a button and when it first started I wondered if they would end up having some kind of affair, but thankfully the writers didn't go there. Back to finishing season six on no sleep!
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Post by coco13 on May 18, 2016 12:34:34 GMT -6
No, Raylan doesn't seem massively screwed up! He seems like his messed up childhood has made him that much stronger and more driven. They really didn't do a good job of showing that he and Winona had a loveless marriage, as someone said it was in the book. He never cheated on her or did anything terrible... He was driven in his job but in marriage you have to learn to accept someone's flaws and love them despite of it. My impression is that he is massively in love with Winona and hurt that she left him, and in fact doesn't even understand why she left him to the point he had to ask her why. I haven't read the book but on the show R&W are portrayed as loving each other/being soulmates. There have been interviews with GY, TO and NZ over the years mentioning this. He doesn't seem deeply flawed in his character — he toes the line in his job but he's not corrupt or dirty, and being a badass is his strength. Yes he's thought about stealing money, for example, but he never actually did it, unlike Winona. I mean that was nuts. Winona describes Raylan in the pilot as being the angriest man she has ever known and the writers draw on this throughout the series. Have you watched the season 4 finale 'Ghosts' and Raylan's dealings with Nicky Augustine? Winona knew she made a mistake taking the money and she did put it back!
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Post by ripetebook on May 18, 2016 13:07:00 GMT -6
The Winona debate was a constant! We each had our own senses regarding her and them. After your initial binge is done....many would likely return for another round of Winona and Raylan! We learn as much from each other as we do from the actual show. I will say season six is wonderful.
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superglue
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Fangirling over TO since he dropped his pants on Conan.
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Post by superglue on May 18, 2016 13:50:27 GMT -6
Thanks for the info on Natalie Zea's frustration about season five. She hit the nail on the head - her pregnancy was a huge part of the show, Raylan declares it the greatest news ever, and yet when she has the actual baby she drops off the planet and he flat out refuses to go see her? That made no sense. I hate to go there but I find myself blaming the male writers on the show for this oversight. Obviously this was a misfire to just sort of let the storyline disappear without explaining. If Raylan and Winona had had some kind of blow out fight, then his absence might be explainable, but instead she's just sort of written out as waiting and dreaming of him showing up. That doesn't fit her character at all. Any woman would be absolutely gutted if that happened to her, alone with a baby going on six months and the father hasn't met her because he hasn't gotten around to it. Did they really not have a single female in the writers' room saying "Ummmm, no. Just no." I wonder if TO was unhappy with this because I remember some interview where he said Raylan's attitude about fatherhood was not something he could relate to. I'm LOVING season six so far. I have new respect for Ava with her storyline and what she's going through. The layers to these characters is superb. Even the bad guys are not one-dimensional. Sooo excited to see Dickie and Loretta back. Dickie's reaction when he found out he had sold the property to Loretta
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superglue
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Fangirling over TO since he dropped his pants on Conan.
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Post by superglue on May 18, 2016 14:58:08 GMT -6
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Post by wkw99 on May 18, 2016 15:01:12 GMT -6
It's a great episode!
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sarad
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In love with TO since Jennifer Garner slapped his face.
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Post by sarad on May 19, 2016 4:34:02 GMT -6
Did Raylan definitely not attend the birth? I thought it wasn't shown either way, just Art cooing over baby picture on Raylan's desk at the beginning of Season 5. I was disappointed that the birth wasn't covered in the script, either Raylan being there and maybe being overwhelmed or have him fail to turn up, leaving Winona p***ed off.
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Post by coco13 on May 19, 2016 5:25:18 GMT -6
Did Raylan definitely not attend the birth? I thought it wasn't shown either way, just Art cooing over baby picture on Raylan's desk at the beginning of Season 5. I was disappointed that the birth wasn't covered in the script, either Raylan being there and maybe being overwhelmed or have him fail to turn up, leaving Winona p***ed off. In the episode 'The Hunt' in season 6, Winona asks Raylan if he'd like to hold his daughter since he hasn't had a chance to do so yet and at that stage the baby is 6 months old.
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sarad
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In love with TO since Jennifer Garner slapped his face.
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Post by sarad on May 19, 2016 5:59:12 GMT -6
Did Raylan definitely not attend the birth? I thought it wasn't shown either way, just Art cooing over baby picture on Raylan's desk at the beginning of Season 5. I was disappointed that the birth wasn't covered in the script, either Raylan being there and maybe being overwhelmed or have him fail to turn up, leaving Winona p***ed off. In the episode 'The Hunt' in season 6, Winona asks Raylan if he'd like to hold his daughter since he hasn't had a chance to do so yet and at that stage the baby is 6 months old. Jeez, that's established one-and-half seasons later? That is an oversight indeed.
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Post by coco13 on May 19, 2016 6:22:08 GMT -6
In the episode 'The Hunt' in season 6, Winona asks Raylan if he'd like to hold his daughter since he hasn't had a chance to do so yet and at that stage the baby is 6 months old. Jeez, that's established one-and-half seasons later? That is an oversight indeed. It was probably addressed in season 5, I just can't remember which episodes!
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