6.8 Dark as a Dungeon.

[wkw99]

It boggles the mind to think how un-Justified an ending would be, in a dank dark tunnel.

WWED? Not that.

After all the talk of staying true to Elmore, I just don't see Yost and the writers ending it that way.

I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. And I sure hope I'm not.

[ripetebook]

They screwed this up in season one with 2000 on her gravestone. When helen died arlo commented his 15 years with her were his best years. Raylan went to college at 19 and when he testified at Dickie's hearing he said he'd been a marshal for 19 years...doing justified math takes such skill the assumption is he is 40. That at most in six seasons only maybe a year has passed. Use the pregnancy as a basis...she was two months at the end of season two and had the baby well after season four ended. Boyd like Raylan is also 40. I am sure this does not help.

[justifiedceo]

WKW, thanks for your support. We both think it shouldn't end the wrong way and the non-Elmore way. Especially after all the EL wristbands talk. And if a movement from "EL-like" was intended; I would think it would have been done with his personal blessing and not a slight-of-hand after he expired. I am banking on all of this being misdirection. Including the mine-shaft/Saprano narrative.

RIPE. I have not had the time to check on the original tombstone pictures. I watched the Helen service and it only showed RG's. I will check again. Because your observation changes my calculus.

2000 for Francis, based on what I wrote today and your input, is either an epic screwup.

OR. Something from the first season that was ingenuously "hiding in plain sight", AND a big Francis - mother of Raylan - reveal is in the cards for last season.

The latter is totally cool and would tie up all of my "RG's mom dangling unanswered past backstory" rants. An acknowledgment that the writers, not only knew the 2000 date - but we all should have figured out a long time ago ... that RG's mother Francis did die, but she left Arlo and him, well before she expired.

The former? Why the lack of such gross quality control from the show-runner? Even Francis's tombstone saying 1990, would still be unworkable, because Raylan was still too old to be "raised by his Aunt Helen".

Right now, given it was shown in S1 and in S8.E8, I choose to become hopeful, that (a) the show is heading to the right ending and (b) the Francis reveal was something they cleverly, had in their back pocket, and plan to tie up in the last 5 episodes.

Meaning, just as in every love affair, I am willing to give the girl I took to the dance for the last 6 years, the benefit of the doubt.

JC

[mondayschild]

There were so many wonderful elements to this episode. I loved a lot of the conversations: Kathryn and Art. (Has she given him what he needs to end a case that is gnawing at both of them?) Raylan and Markham. Raylan and Ava. ("The past is a statement. The future is a question.") The literary allusions...Boyd and Raylan talking about the future. Raylan talks about riding off into the sunset and Boyd references Moby Dick. "A guy chases a whale to the ends of the earth and drowns for his trouble." And Arlo's ghost saying to Raylan in the secret hiding place, "What were you expecting, Rosebud?"(Citizen Cane.)

Just a silly question. Have you noticed that Ava is constantly showing cleavage this season? I guess she's really glad to be out of that prison jumpsuit. But really, Ava.

We know that Raylan wants to put Boyd away. But in his attempt to trap Boyd, he has actually given him the means to escape. One hundred thousand dollars. I'm sure Raylan knows that Boyd will still try to get a lot more from the vault, but what if he's wrong? Is he a tiny bit ambivalent? Of course, it's all up to Boyd in the end. He can slip away with Ava and the money, go straight, and maybe live to see another day, or he can "chase the whale to the ends of the earth and drown for his trouble." Ava wants to leave. As much as Boyd says he loves her, he seems to love money more. I'd like to see Ava get a clue. I'd like to see her bail. But Ava needs a man as much as Boyd wants the big score. Recipe for disaster.

[motorcitymade]

JCEO We railed and railed on the tombstone 2000 flub over at FX before you arrived. I believe the first time we saw Francis's grave marker DATE was in Season 2, right ladies???

I think it may have actually started the "Plot flaws" thread so loathed by the production team that lurked on the FX site.

A baseball bat-swinging Raylan did say to the drug dealer renter at Helen's house that he hung out there as a kid, and I think they inferred was Francis was still living at that point. It's been a long time, so I its hard to remember.


And Monday my spousal unit has notice that Ava has the twins on prominent display this year. A cream tank top, howerer cute, under a fall jacket is a strange wardrobe choice.

[justifiedceo]

Motor,

Good to know it was identified before I came on board. Love that I missed it.

BUT THEY DOUBLED DOWN IN A BIG WAY IN S6.E8. ANOTHER PLOT FLAW OR A REVEAL??

Also, I remember the baseball bat swinging drug guy episode in S1. The baseball bat swinging was done by Arlo. RG did say he hung out there watching TV and knew every nook and cranny. But I don't think he mentioned his mom. But you maybe right. Because he would only have been hanging out with Aunt Helen at her place while his Mother was still alive. OR could it be because he had to go there after school because his mother left Arlo and he needed to be watched?

So ... jezzzzzzz Again one hell of a double down in a tombstone error of historical time proportion or something to surprise us with.

JC

[ripetebook]

I believe at some point it was stated that Francis was I'll for a long time so Helen likely raised Raylan as much as Francis. Could explain overlap. Also in the pilot Ava said Francis told her about Raylan becoming a marshal. So she was alive in his twenties. More justified math. Thought the 2000 gravestone was a dead issue til this episode and Raylan states she died in 2000. Opening an old wound?? And his grave stone having am unknown place??? This show never fails to fascinate.

[justifiedceo]

Ripe,

Great comments. Forgot about Ava saying that on this first episode. "Your mom said you were a Marshal before she passed".

But as you say, I don't know why her grave date was verbally doubled down.

I guess it is simply hope. I think Francis is a real character. And there should be more time - in the last 5 episodes - to round her story out.

JC

[ripetebook]

Didn't we see a picture in the trunk...and then in Raylan's hands of Francis? That could be a hint? There is so much to cover in five hours. Zachiriah and his plans! Katherine's plans for Avery! Wynn's place in Grady death? I still think he is far more involved!!!!! Then of course...Boyd...who likes to "blow shit up and get money".... And Ava. Is she truly on board for whatever Boyd does...including killing her uncle??? And Carl and earl? And Raylan¿¿?

[weegieburd]

Just read this week's post mortem and see that we are going to meet Grubes....the guy who gets people away over the mountains.....mmmmmmmmmm???

[justifiedceo]

Ripe,

Was that a picture of Francis in the army trunk? Or his "gal" in Vietnam? Perhaps someone different than he married.

We have only seem RG - third-hand - talk about a relative in a POSITIVE emotional way. And that was Aunt Helen in the Dickie Bennett "don't execute me in the woods".

We have only seen RG - again in a third-hand way - talk about his mother in an emotional way. Limehouse "do you want to talk about your Mama". RG eyes light up and says "that would upset me".

To your point there is a lot to cover. From my perspective, if someone like me and you, and an entire fan base thinks about the Francis's backstory, how MUCH must it have been discussed by YOST (it's his baby and he is the show runner) and the producers? We don't live and breathe this show. (Actually sadly I do, which is why the end is going to be personally challenging ) But THEY do.

I have a feeling, the year on her gravestone in E8, will not lead to a big amount of time in the next five hours. But it does tell me - perhaps Raylan lamenting in some way in a scene - that we will learn more. Otherwise why draw attention to it?

Again as to a lot to cover. There has to be all of these side questions you have. Because we all know, at the end, it comes down to RG and Boyd. It has been that way for the entire final season. So to fill up 8 episodes, you have to have other story arcs.

MY PREDICTIONS

ART. The only reason for Katherine Hale and Markham in the end, is for Art to solve his last unsolved crime. And in doing so, by having his own storyline, he is freed up from the Boyd RICO case, so that he and RG can bond at the end.

WD. Have you noticed Vasquez hasn't been featured for a long time? My prediction is Vasquez turned WD into a CI as a backup for Ava, Without telling the Marshals. Remember he and Katherine were hauled into the station at the end of S5? We saw Vasquez questioning KH. We didn't see WD's questioning. WHY WD? Because he can not only help on the Boyd case, but he can help on Vasquez's ex-boss that was killed.

ZACHARIAH. Remember in the last episode him telling RG that it maybe not be what he thinks it it? And do you remember him and Ava's honest hug and embrace. I think Zachariah motives are not just financial. He is as clannish as they come. He has his own family reasons for killing Boyd and his men. Boyd's brother Bowman beating on Ava. After he and Ava's honest hugging and embrace, he said Ava's father - his brother - wouldn't have wanted Ava to marry Bowman. Ava says she would have anyways. But Zachariah hasn't forgot. And knows that Ava is in trouble with being associated with Boyd.

JC

[ripetebook]

I think the money he demands is a ruse...play to what Boyd is. I agree zachiriah wants vengeance...could a crowder be somehow behind the cave in that killed Ava's father?

Raylan has shared much more about Francis over six seasons. But that is another story.

Been doing more math. Season one maybe lasted one month. Season two pretty much the same. Season three started right after two ended and then did a three week jump so Raylan healed. Another month for the rest. The bounty hunter bit was six days. The only real measure is nine months pregnant and Willa is five months old. So Raylan could be forty or forty one. Notice they never show a season change? Any holiday??? Hell Kentucky gets snow but we never even see warm coats. Even a fun fact..the wildcats from Kentucky are heading into march madness as the only unbeaten team...the wildcats of Lexington.... Hint hint. They avoid any concept of time. Math class is dismissed.

[wkw99]

It seems like it's always spring or fall in the Justified-verse. When Raylan wears double henleys under his denim jacket, (like in The Hunt) I figure it's fall.

Actually, it's probably just a cold day in California and Tim has zero body fat to keep him warm. LOL

I have a prediction: the Marshals RICO case on Boyd falls apart, but they get him for the murder of Dewey Crowe.

[motorcitymade]

JCEO some have speculated that Wynn Duffy was the Mole originally in the Hale case, so that interesting that you think Vasquez might have recently turn him. Hmmmm?

[justifiedceo]

All,

Here is what I base my observations on.

S5E11. While Boyd and WD are meeting, Rachel says they have Duffy on back taxes and impound his vehicle. He has it back ... by E12 when the Mexican Cartel is interviewing him about him and Boyd and Duffy offers to find Daryl Crowe..

S5E11. While Boyd, WD and Katherine Hale are meeting in the Lexington hotel - this is before blowing up Picker - all are taken into custody. Vasquez is surprised to know, one knows that his boss was murdered in the Grady Hale case (Art would but he is in the hospital). RG interrogates Picker. Vasquez - in a subtle way - talks to KH at the station and says, when asked if he is disappointed she is still alive, says smiling "a little bit". Boyd is sitting on a chair outside RG's cubicle. WHO IS NOT SHOWN? One Wynn Duffy.

S5E13 through the present. Wynn Duffy is a third wheel in the take Avery Markham's money caper. Katherine Hale really only needs Boyd. In E8, WD says as much.

S6:E8/Last episode. Wynn Duffy has the file to link Markham to Grady's AND Vasquez's boss's murder. Where did Wynn get the file? Well who has been missing for weeks? Vasquez. What better way to get Katherine Hale to think she has the law on her side and to let her guard down? Vasquez having Duffy share a bogus file that she can share with a marshal who is plausibly out-of-the-loop, but someone she knows? Art.

S6:E9 Previews. As much as it was funny for Wynn to be seen once with a thong getting a tan ... it happens again with Art and the Marshals again. I don't think it is doubling down on a joke. I think by E9, either Vasquez informs everyone OR they already knew it and its time to meet with their CI.

JC

[ripetebook]

I don't see him as a CI but I sure think he knows or was a bigger player in Grady hale arrest and murder. He is pushing it on Avery with an explanation that fits Wynn just as much. I think Wynn wants Avery's vault of cash with Katherine. And yeah I see bringing justice to this is art swan song...not his death...just his glory and retirement. Would be funny if the Mullens retire to Miami!!!!!!!

[justifiedceo]

Perhaps we can all agree that Wynn has his own agenda.

But IMO it would be bad writing to suggest Wynn Duffy had anything to do with Grady's arrest and murder -

1. The original reason he reaches out to Katherine Hale, is for a $50K "assessment" of Boyd in S5.E10. He trusts her judgement. Why would he want to drag a stick on a gorilla cage to draw out a potential person he negatively affected?

2. Perhaps there were other bosses of the Dixie Mafia, but Wynn Duffy was never one. The last one we saw, before the reign of Grady Hale, was Ament Arnnett. So Wynn Duffy didn't move up by shoving Grady to the side or vertical.

Other things to consider -

1. Wynn Duffy is capable of sticking around a caper but getting out of a bind. He watched the SS Qaurles battleship sinking and called the Marshals with the tip on the missing rent boy.
2. Katherine Hale put him on notice, in E8, that she might just marry AM, and that is a threat to Wynn.
3. Stands to reason, WD, is going to turn on her.
4. Of all the things WD can do to turn on her ... turning to the Marshals (at least that is what the preview implied) means WD is smart enough to know that whatever riches are to be split or not split by stealing money from Avery Markham is not worth getting implicated in a conspiracy and going to jail.

Just my two cents
JC

[ripetebook]

Good analysis. Knowing how much they love Jere burns..his story will be great. Love that the tanning bed is back. Hey maybe the CI is Mikey!!!!!! That would be so twisty. And justified can be so twisty. As long as Raylan leaves Harlan ALIVE..I will accept anything they do.

[siss13]

Mar 14, 2015 2:34:32 GMT -6 weegieburd said:

Just read this week's post mortem and see that we are going to meet Grubes....the guy who gets people away over the mountains.....mmmmmmmmmm???

I have a feeling Boyd will be on the run soon, with or without Ava. He'll probably need Grubes.

[justifiedceo]

S6:12 is called "Fugitive Number 1". That's got to be Boyd right. The only question is whether Ava is with him.

Wynn Duffy/Jere Burns and Mikey should be its own show. "Did you go to the dry cleaners, I need a shirt to go with my pants". LOL. What character is so un-KY than WD? His metro-sexual, neatness, clothing-conscious, skin color obsession, health conscious eating and women-tennis fetish is so distinctive on Justified. What a great contrast!

JC

[mare27]

Mar 15, 2015 11:35:29 GMT -6 siss13 said:

Mar 14, 2015 2:34:32 GMT -6 weegieburd said:

Just read this week's post mortem and see that we are going to meet Grubes....the guy who gets people away over the mountains.....mmmmmmmmmm???

I have a feeling Boyd will be on the run soon, with or without Ava. He'll probably need Grubes.

my mind wanders...could Grubes be Ian McShane? (shades of Deadwood!) Nah, would never happen.
...and another new character? at this late date?

[justifiedceo]

Another random thought as I am in a weekend S6 E1 through E8 marathon.

Boyd in E5 "The Sounding" says that the last encounter with Zachariah he was threatened with buckshot. Clearly Zachariah has clan issues. And his warning to RG that "this might not be what it look like" needs to be taken seriously. If Zachariah was only in it for the money; he wouldn't have tried to kill Boyd/ending up instead killing Pig. Zachariah is out for revenge. In Boyd's being blinded by money - together with him walking away from $100K and leaving town - clearly he is missing the "kind of people he has lived around". Zachariah might not be the one that kills Boyd; but he is going to try.

JC

[justifiedceo]

Ian McShane - if cast - would have likely been the S6 Big Bad.

But that would have involved a different set of character. Not to mention a risk that would have certainly foreshadowed taking down Raylan.

But it would have been cool!!

JC

[justifiedceo]

Boyd "Zachariah and the Randolfs never got over how Bowman treated Ava".

[justifiedceo]

Running tabs -

E5: Wynn Duffy uses an untraceable prod on Albert Fecus, but lets him live. More credence that WD doesn't have unfettered legal obligations. Mikey is incredulous that WD is letting him live. See my blockbuster last update at the bottom.

E6. RG at Ava's house asks about Dewey Crowe. Thus giving us the Dewey Crowe murder theory (sorry I forgot who) being hung on Boyd

E6. Zachariah is not faking when he shows up at Ava's. Ava hugs him hard. Zachariah has a hard time not talking to her like a child. He admits adults are a mystery to him. Clearly Zachariah stopped growing up after his brother was killed. Lending credence (again I forgot who) that Ava's father died due to something by a Crowder perhaps? Either way, he loves Ava. Really loves her. And Boyd is blind to that. Boyd even boasts that "Zachariah is just working for him". That's hubris talking.

E6. Avery Markham tells Katherine Hale he knows she ratted out Grady so she would not have to go to jail. She tried to deny it. He says he made his peace with it. And intends on holding her close to his vest. Katherine? She knows Avery may have another agenda of revenge. Leading credence (my theory) that Vasquez has not told all the Marshals what his main agenda is. Why he wants Katherine Hale for having killed his ex-boss. Perhaps the Boyd RICO case is simply a diversion because he already knew Markham was coming to town by the end of last season.

E6. Rachel to Art. "She (KH) is making time with Avery Markham according to our CI". She quickly realizes she exposed a secret and pivots to Ava running. BINGO. Who would know about KH making time with Markham? ONE WYNN DUFFY. OR MIKEY. BUT I WILL PUT MONEY ITS WYNN DUFFY BECAUSE HE HAS A BIGGER JACKET. Either way, Rachel knows something from Vasquez and she isn't telling Art. I PRESENT YOU WITH THE SMOKING GUN THAT I WAS LOOKING FOR THIS WEEKEND.

More updates as I finish my marathon.