Unfounded Speculation

[bookperson39]

Since we have AGES to go before we see any new Raylan & Co., I thought we could perhaps engage in a bit of Unfounded Speculation about what might happen to the characters in Season 3.

For example: Do Raylan and Winona get married? Does Ava live? Will Art really find out what Raylan and Winona were up to in the locker? What happens to Loretta/

What are your thoughts about next season

[wkw99]

Cool! Then we can come back during S3 and find out how off/on base we were. Fun.

Art already knows about the money. He's chosen not to do anything about it. I don't think it will come up again.

I don't know that R & W will jump right back into marriage. He'll probably want to...but she might balk (third marriage and all) ...that equals tension, which makes for good drama.

Ava lives. Absolutely.

What about Dickie? Do they have him for Helen's murder now that Mags is out of the picture? I did hear that Jeremy was coming back, or wanted to.

Who will be the 'big bad' for S3...Boyd? Dixie Mafia?

Will Gary come back to cause trouble?

What will Arlo do without Helen?

How about some wishes for S3 as well?

I will be devastated if Winona isn't there when Raylan gets back from Harlan. I'd like to get a bit of background on her, too...to understand her better.

I want to see more of Art, Tim, and Rachel, and maybe what they do on their off time.

[mondayschild]

My guess is that Winona will be there and she will have mixed emotions. She loves Raylan, she's glad he will be okay, but she will be supremely pissed as only Winona can be. I wouldn't be in Raylan's boots for anything.

Art will still struggle with his feelings about Raylan. Dickie is in custody, but it's up in the air as to whether or not he'll be convicted of anything. Everyone KNOWS what he's done, but proving it in a court of law is a different story.
Also the rest of the Bennett mess has been rectified by death. Even though his methods are sometimes questionable, Raylan does clean up messes. I think it will still be sometime yet before Art can accept what has gone down with Raylan.

Wouldn't it be fun to see Gary again? I love to see him twisting in the wind.

Arlo is going to be pathetic without Helen. Remember when Arlo told Raylan that he was a mess after the death of Raylan's mother and that Helen was his saving grace. He is too reckless to be alone.

Ava will live. Boyd will think twice about the life he's been leading recently, but he is who he is. Nuff said.

As far as who the next baddie will be, who knows? I do think we're going to see more of the Dixie Mafia. And we know that Wynn Duffy is not easily put off. He'd like to take Raylan out, and I think he might try again.

I don't know if we'll see Loretta much or at all. Graham Yost talked about possibly bringing her back later at an older age.

Speaking of being bad and Loretta, I have been a bad girl and spent a considerable chunk of change on itunes today. I just listened to the Beatles singing "Get Back." Get back, Loretta! Anyone remember that one? (I know--- my mind has a way of making strange connections.)

[bookperson39]

Ah, Monday, your mind is a wonderful thing! LOL

I really think Winona will be there when Raylan gets back. It would be devastating to a LOT of us if she weren't. And also, they would waste the whole baby thing.

Sad to hear that GY is thinking of bringing Loretta back as "older". Hope they don't waste that great young actress.

I'm voting for the Dixie Mafia as a big presence next year, if not the overriding "villain". I'm sure Dickie will be back to avenge his family in his own endearing way.

[wkw99]

'Loretta' has a main role on Tim Allen's new comedy. Who knows how long that will last though. I think there was even a joke about that at one of the panels toward the end of the season.

I think Winona will be there, too...hopping mad, as Monday suggests, but there. I'm just trying to prepare myself for the outside possibility that they're going to make her a total bitch. LOL. I'll hate it if that happens. They need to give them one season of happiness!
(Ava and Boyd, too)

[bookperson39]

That's right! I remember seeing some shots of her in promos for the TA show. Hope she does well but I hope she finds her way back to Lexington a few times.

I'm laughing about you wanting a "season of happiness" for
Raylan and Winona. When I was the mother of two small kiddies (2 years apart) I would watch 2 or 3 soap operas, mainly because they featured adults in clean clothes speaking English. One was General Hospital and there was a storyline about Grant and Celia. All I remember is that Grant and Celia were kept apart by the writers for at least six months with all sorts of trials and tribulations including a fake Grant (a lookalike trained in a Russian spy school. You had to be there.)

Well, they finally got them together and it was lovely for about two weeks until Celia started sniffing around someone else. WHAAAT? I never watched another soap opera. I don't think TV writers have it in them to leave happy characters alone..........

[mondayschild]

I started watching soaps when I was in junior high. In senior high I worked summers, so it was hard to keep up. I can't tell you how many I quit. I quit watching "Days of Our Lives"because of the ruptured relationships. When Julie and Doug broke up for the fifty-third time, I called it quits and never watched it again until a few years ago. Ditto, " All My Children" and " General Hospital." Some of the best acting on tv is on General Hospital"--- Anthony Geary, Brad Maule, who was on long ago, Jonathan Jackson, etc. These people should be big stars. But when GH became a gangster show, I left.

It's good escapist tv for when the little ones are napping. It's kind of like the old commercial, "Calgon, take me away." You turn on the tv and there are adult people in interesting situations. When they become boring or redundant, it's time to leave.

[clovergirl]

Let's face it, both Raylan and Winona have issues. I guess you all know who gets more of my sympathies, lol, but I don't think I have any illusions about him being the perfect mate.

I just think it's flat out unfair for her to ask him to stop doing what he does. She married him once. It didn't work out. She seems to now be saying she wants to be with him again except he needs to be someone else. Or she does.

He needs to find a way to do his job, in Kentucky, without taking the kind of risks that he's been taking, that could easily get him killed. Glynco is not the answer.

She needs to be a big girl and learn how to support her ex/future husband in a way that makes him want to stay alive and safe. I would think that having a woman and child at home would instinctively make him less reckless with his life. Maybe break him of the abused child syndrome thinking that says he deserves to be punished sometimes, saving him from a few beatings. Hell, maybe that's why, of all the women in the world, he's sleeping with his ex!

But seriously, millions of LEO/military/firefighter families do it every day. Lots of life-threatening jobs are held by people with families and it takes a special kind of person to handle it. Of course they fear for their safety, but they find ways to cope with it.

They each need to compromise but I don't see that happening. I think they're a classic case of two people who love each other but who just can't live together.

I really hope they are together for the whole season, in spite of my feelings, because I think this relationship ending for a second time is gonna be really painful for them both, and I'm not really ready to see THAT Raylan Givens..

[wkw99]

It seems to me from what we know their marriage worked until he left Glynco for Miami. Maybe she thought he'd be an instructor forever. Maybe he let her believe that, or thought it was what he wanted. We really know very little about those early years. I'm not ready to make this all her problem.

Yes, she needs to support him, but, HE'S the one who suggested Glynco, not her. She didn't even jump on it right away. She seems to be the one being more cautious about this 'second chance'. Some see that as a lack of enthusiasm, (or a lack of love) but I don't. I think she just doesn't want it to end the way it did the first time. She wants it to work. Especially now with a baby.

I would hope that a family would make him more cautious, but this is Raylan we're talking about. We can't forget that Winona isn't the only one who finds Raylan's tactics unnerving. Art, Tim, Rachel, they all have their issues with him...even Helen did...

My hope is that being strung up by Dickie and saved by Boyd, shot, almost finished off by Doyle and saved by sure-shot Tim will give Raylan a new understanding of his own mortality. Please.

[clovergirl]

I absolutely agree that everyone is correct in finding Raylan's tactics unsettling and hard to live with. I make no excuses for his bad behavior and his part in what probably killed their relationship the first time. She, I think, sees things clearer now than he does. He's still sort of blinded by his love for her and just willing to do whatever she wants him to do. I think she knows that isn't gonna work in the long run. Thing is, somebody's gonna have to admit that at some point. I think she's realizing that neither of them has changed but the baby has really complicated things and she's willing to give it a try. We just know it's not gonna work.

[mondayschild]

Clover and wkw, you both make so much sense. Well put, both of you. I have serious issues with Winona, but I do agree that Raylan is not blameless. I just can't wait to see what happens in season 3.

[wkw99]

Oh...I know it's probably not going to work....but a girl can dream, right? -(those are my rose-colored-glasses)

[clovergirl]

I think Raylan is wearing them now as he looks back at his marriage. All he knows is he wants her. I think when things are wrong in a marriage and the woman is unhappy, the man is usually clueless. He looks back at Glynco as when they were happy. I think Winona sees it differently. We know it couldn't have gone from perfect to Gary the minute he went to Miami. There were problems and they just weren't discussed.

There's a great scene in the movie "The Departed" where Matt Damon is in bed with his girlfriend and he says "you have to promise me that if we're ever gonna end, that you'll tell me, because I'm Irish and I'll just hang in there." or something like that, lol.
A perfect example of a man realizing just how clueless he is when it comes to his relationship, yet smart enough to admit it.

[giselle001]

I would really love Boyd take care of his unfinished business with Dickie. I don't see Raylan doing anything about Dickie and he does owe Boyd so let him deal with it. Dickie won't it seems pay for Helen's murder or Ava getting shot. I would also like the mending of fences between Art and Raylan before the third season ends or sooner. This may be a miracle but I would like to see Arlo and Raylan be more than civil to one another for anything else for Helen. As bad as there are to one another and at times hate one another family is family. I could never say that about Boyd and his daddy though. And yes I would love to see Raylan and Winona happy for a little while. I don't know if a second marriage is in the cards but both need to grow up and accept one another faults and flaws and move on and understand each other better. If only for the baby, but they both love one another they are just going to have to compromise and work things out. Winona knows too well now what her man's job of a LEO involves and yet she has decided to want to be with him again. She has to just accept that his is a dangerous job at times and stand by him and stay with him and be there if he needs her to listen. Raylan needs to grow and to stop going all maverick and lone wolf and acknowledge his own mortality and understand what Winona is going through.

[mondayschild]

I couldn't have said it better, you guys. And I have tried! Raylan is besotted. He doesn't see the forest for the trees. Anything to make Winona happy, even going back to Glynco.. She sees the obstacles ahead, but still wants him. He wants her no matter what, but he can't change who he really is. He's willing to try to do what she wants, but he is who he is. They really HAVE to sit down with a marriage counselor or a clergy person before this baby is born. (We have no indication that either of them is a member of a church.) But I doubt that they will do it. They will keep moving at cross purposes and failing to connect in the way that they should. We know enough about Raylan to understand his problems, but we have little to go on concerning Winona.Wish we could get some back story, writers! I just haven't figured Winona out yet, and feel that I could be a whole lot more sympathetic if I knew what makes her tick.

[wkw99]

mondayschild...I have to disagree with you on one important point. Glynco isn't what she wants...it's what he THINKS she wants, and it's what he wants because it means being with her and getting away from Art. It wasn't her idea, it was his, and she balked at it at first. (I think because she sees him running away from his problems with Art). This whole Glynco thing is Raylan's doing NOT Winona's. She didn't ask him; he asked her, and she's NOT the only reason. Yes, he loves her, but he has other reasons for wanting to get out of KY, again. Let's not forget that.

I wish we knew more about her background, too. But so far, we aren't getting that insight.

[bookperson39]

I'm interested in your comment that Winona sees Raylan as "running away from his problems with Art." If I understand what you mean, I guess I DON"T understand what you mean. LOL

If Raylan and Art have a "little talk" about the money incident, it would surely result in Raylan either going to prison (perhaps Winona also) or Art giving them just enough time to get to Venezuela before he reports them. The only reason Raylan did not, as an officer of the law, report Winona is that he loves her and knows what the probable result could be. While Art "loves" Raylan, I don't know as he could stand by and let this slide if he were if possesion of the facts.

Am I way off base here? Let me know! :-)

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[wkw99]

What I mean is that Raylan wanting to leave has as much (or more) to do with the whole 'Art's done with me' statement, as it does with Winona, and she KNOWS that (in the scene in Debts and Accounts).

She doesn't want him to use her as an excuse to get away from a bad situation with Art. Which is why she says: "Got nothin' better to do so I might as well run away with my ex."

I'm not saying Art and Raylan should or ever will talk about the money situation, and I am one who believes that the problems between Art and Raylan are about far more than just that. For Art, that's just one more example of Raylan's recklessness, and only one of the reasons he calls him a 'bad marshal'.

Does that help, bookperson?

[mondayschild]

The whole situation between Art and Raylan is so frustrating. Art really is very fond of Raylan; he just can't abide the way that Raylan flaunts the rules. Let's face it--- Raylan gets the job done. It's just that he doesn't always play by the rules. And yet, at times, Art, Tim and Rachel have come to respect what Raylan does, even if his methods are not totally kosher.

As far as Raylan using Glynco as a way to avoid his problems with Art and not just making Winona happy--- sure, it's only his feeling that going to Glynco is what Winona wants, but the fact is, he will do anything to keep her. If he has to get out of the field, he is willing to do it. It kills two birds with one stone. It gets him out of danger and makes Winona happy and it gets him away from Art and the horrible tension between the two of them.

But let me throw this out here: Does anyone think that the true attraction between Winona and Raylan is more sexual than than true love? Some of you will jump all over me about this, but one scene just keeps coming back to me. It is the "simple man " episode. Winona starts the sparing with saying that anyone looking into Raylan's closet would think that he is a simple man. Then she starts to talk about his living arrangements. Raylan says that maybe he should rent an apartment or buy a house. He says he know a good realtor, referring to Gary. She calls him an as.shole. While I think it was probably a cheap shot, she calls him an AS.SHOLE! (The fact that she took up with Gary instead of meeting up with Raylan in Miami really grinds on Raylan.) Raylan says that they can fight about it or talk about it, but either way it won't be easy. The fact is, that he won't give up, just because it isn't easy. He really wants her, even thought they aren't compatible. The sex is too good. And let's acknowledge that Gary can't hold a candle to Raylan. Winona made a big mistake in thinking that security and money would solve all her problems. She can't get enough of Raylan even if they aren't compatible anywhere except in bed. Sex is an important aspect of any serious relationship, but if you want different things in life, it's not going to work.
.

[wkw99]

No sex is good enough to do what he did for her. He loves her.

And I really believe it's not just about sex, not on either of their parts. She's left a comfortable life, one she was at least content with, if not ecstatic about, before Raylan came back into her life. Now, she's pregnant, not married to the father, (but still married to someone else) and basically living in a motel. So, she's made some sacrifices too.

I really really really wish that people would acknowledge Raylan's complicity in whatever happened in their marriage the first time. NO one cheats just for the hell of it. People cheat, for the most part, (unless it's a chronic thing, which this doesn't seem to be), because they aren't getting what they need out of their relationship. At the very least, Raylan was completely unaware that she was unhappy...not uncommon for a man, at the worst, he knew it and didn't try to do anything about it. And evidently, he didn't fight very hard for her when she decided to leave. From things she's said, I'm thinking if he had the result might have been different.

I don't think it's so much that they want different things...I think they want each other, they both want this baby, they want a life together. She just wants him to come home to her at night, safe, other than that conflicting with his job and the way he does it, I don't think they're so far off the mark.

Oh, and in that scene...he IS being an asshole. She's being a bitch, but that doesn't excuse what he says. And I think they're very compatible in a lot of ways...they 'get' each other, they have a verbal short-hand in the way they banter. I love their scenes because of that.

[giselle001]

wkw, I agree with you all the way and they way you made things clear about Winona and Raylan. I wish there were flashbacks or background to their marriage to understand this couple better. However some people in relationships on both sides cheat because they can but for the most part there are reasons as to why and not strictly because of sex. It is not just simply black and white but very gray shades. Even though it seems that Winona starts the fighting or argument it is with good reason some times. Raylan has to change how he lives his life and work on keeping his anger in check and communicate with Winona if he wants a life with her. They have a second chance to change what they did wrong and not go back and make the same mistakes and learn from and maybe have a happy but brief life together. Because they make one hell of a couple together than they do apart.

[bookperson39]

Thanks for the great insights into the relationship, wkw and Giselle! I'm approximately 110 years old and don't remember scenes by heart the way you young'uns do. I really enjoy reading everyone's interpretations of the goings on on the show and how we can all watch the same scene and bring different things to it.

BTW, I hope I'm not breaking any of the protocols of this board if I say you can call me Audrey. "bookperson" is a good email handle for a librarian, but a bit awkward in conversation. LOL

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[mondayschild]

It is obvious that I see Raylan and Winona's relationship in a different way than most of you do. I think it is a difference in our frames of reference. I am a bit older and was married for 35 years when I lost my husband. There is that first flush of romance,which you all have experienced. As the years go by, a husband and wife develop what may be very different desires than they had when they first fell in love and married. Different things become important to each of them. We were married at a time when people didn't divorce casually. If your spouse wasn't an alcoholic, abusive, or a cheat, you worked out your differences. A commitment was a commitment. It was honored unless there were compelling differences.

If I may recall for you an experience I had that relates to this: In the late 90's, my husband and I went to a dinner where we knew some, but not all of the people. There was one couple who "sparred " like Raylan and Winona do. (And like Arlo and Helen did.) They were" pulling strips off of each other", as Arlo described it, all night. It was one of the most uncomfortable things I ever witnessed. These people may have loved each other dearly, but it sure didn't feel like it. It seemed that something other than love was holding them together.

I relate this from my frame of reference. It is not necessarily the situation with Raylan and Winona, but I do feel that their relationship is dysfunctional, and for the life of me, I don't understand what keeps them together, other than a hunger for each other that they cannot resist. I would like nothing better than for them to have a wonderful life together, but I don't see how it is possible.

[wkw99]

Mondayschild, I agree that their relationship is dysfunctional, but most relationships are, at some point. I don't see their sparring as malicious at all. They arent trying to hurt each other. They're two people, who for whatever reason rooted in their childhoods most likely, aren't comfortable expressing their affection in a "traditional" way. So they joke and tease. To outsiders it may seem mean, but they know it's not. And it's in no way the same as what Arlo and Helen did....they weren't joking, there was genuine animosity there...with R&W I don't see any sign if that, just frustration at times.

A perfect example...in the elevator when she says "I hate smelling you on me all day." His response: "You should have taken another shower." Some see that exchange as mean-spirited; I find it sexy as hell. And he obviously does, too.

Different strokes for different folks. just because someone's relationship, or what you see of it, is different than yours or even makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean it's 'bad'. I'm glad you had a happy marriage, but that couple who made you uncomfortable may have been just as happy in their own way.

Does all this mean I think Raylan and Winona will live happily ever after? No way. LOL. But only because this is tv and that doesn't make for good drama.

[giselle001]

mondayschild, from my perspective Raylan and Winona have this love/lust relationship. They are a couple that do love each other and yes there is that lust thing . But that is both parts to a relationship. Because we see them banter and not be a typical it might seem wrong and unhealthy but unless your with the couple 24/7 or in their bedroom it is then you question the relationship. Will they last I don't know but I'm hoping for most of or all of season three. I even think in some strange way Arlo loved Helen and she loved him but that is how they expressed it. My friends' parents and mine were very similar to Arlo and Helen.Speaking from personal experience my marriage I thought would last. My second husband I thought was the one and perfect. For the most part he was and the marriage was but then things got... I had met someone else. We had become friends and then much more. At that point I realized there was so much not there in that marriage and my husband wasn't what I thought him to be as he was in the beginning. But I was foolish and blind and remarried him for a second time knowing it was a huge mistake and believing things would be different.I realized that the day I remarried him, I was sobbing on the beach missing someone else and wanting to be with that person instead.Days later I flew out to see that person who had transferred out of state because he wanted me to be happy and for my marriage to work but he and I couldn't deny what we felt and wanted no matter how hard we tried to stay away and do the right thing. When I came back home I still stayed in that marriage for five months it was when my ex did what he did I ended things and filed for divorce.My ex knew at the time that the other man was more than my friend.He at times was rough and aggressive. My friend in no way had anything to do with why I divorced my second ex two times. He had his own difficulties within his marriage and he was already divorced when I met him.And now this marriage with him we both have gotten it right. But through everything he and I know better and have learned from past mistakes.He and I know one another and understand one another. better than anyone else has or does I do take marriage and all that goes with it seriously I don't go into it blindly but if there are reasons as to why it isn't and won't work and if I feel I have tried every way to make it work and without success then I walk.