What' do you want for Season 4?

[wkw99]

exdusem, this may very well be the best character dissection of Raylan that I've ever read. I think you've really hit upon the troubled/terrified child that is at his core. While I don't think Raylan is totally unaware of the effect his childhood has had on him, he doesn't seem able (or willing) to address it. I also think that when he's tempted to, he drinks the impulse away. There are times when I see Raylan as a borderline alcoholic. Not quote there yet, but perhaps easily tipped over the edge.

There are moments...the aftermath of Tommy Bucks being one, the moment after he's shot in the S2 finale and the entire episode 'Watching the Detectives' this season are others....where the real Raylan shows up and there's a look on his face that's basically "Oh, shit...what have I done?" But it's quickly squashed by his other persona.

Still, I hope the writers realize that it's those vulnerable moments that allow us (well, me at least) to identify and care about him. They need to continue to show us that side of him. If those personal moments stop, he becomes nothing more than a caricature of a 'shoot first ask questions later' lawman...and I'm not interested in that.

As for him ever figuring things out...well...in the world of Elmore Leonard, that rarely happens, unfortunately. I find that disappointing at times, and while I love Leonard's writing and laugh out loud at his books, when you take a character like Raylan Givens out of the short-term of a novel and make him a living breathing character, I think there needs to be some growth and change to keep him real. Otherwise the eventual ending of this series could be totally depressing.

[kentuckygal]

I am so enjoying reading everyone's posts on this thread. Wonderful insight into our damaged hero.

As top notch as the writing is on this show, they could explore Raylan's gradually increasing self-awareness and (hopefully) healing without losing sight of the reckless badass that initially drew us to this character in the pilot's first five minutes. While the show might lose some of the fanboy base that only wants bad men behaving badly, gauging by the intelligently written posts on numerous websites, Justified has a fairly sophisticated fan base that grasps and appreciates the complexity of the characters and themes.

Plus we have TO as a hands on producer and lead actor. He not only wears this role like a second skin, he doesn't shy away from exposing Raylan's vulnerabilities and shortcomings. (I think he'd get bored really fast if Raylan devolved into the wisecracking but invulnerable Terminator in a stetson doling out justice Harlan style.)

He seems to prefer taking the most complex scenes and reducing them to their bare essentials, trusting his own skills as an actor and the intelligence of the audience " to get it." Good example: the last scene in Slaughterhouse that went through various permutations from a heartfelt discussion with Winona (which TO rejected as being out of character) to that quiet, subtle and simple closing line. It got the point across initially--- and then proceeded to burrow into the viewer's head, becoming emotionally powerful and haunting.
________________________________________
On another note of what I'd like to see in S4 is more insight into Limehouse. The character seemed so menacing when first introduced. But then he got lost in the shuffle of all the plot balls the writers were juggling throughout the season. But damn, the payoff was great when they finally brought it all together at the end. And I don't just mean the meat clever scene. The character had my attention! There was so much more to him and his influence on the local landscape, both historically and currently.

Also, I hope the show checks in with Loretta at least once per season. While some fans hope she'll become the next Mags Bennett, I hope she takes a different path thanks to the opportunities she's been given by (ironically) Raylan and Mags.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __

alphamare

I read your delicious post on IMDB in praise of TO's versatility as an actor. Great post!

-- _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

You're right, mondayschild and Dolphin, there have been some awards worthy moments for TO this season. But they've been parceled out over so many episodes this season, not concentrated into one Raylan-centric episode like last year. TO doesn't chew the scenery and Raylan doesn't have weepy breakdowns --- two Emmy magnets. Plus, without a rural Greek tragedy theme tying it all together a la S2's Bennett-Givens-Crowder-Harlan-coal company storyline, the nominating committee may dismiss this as a fun with colorful villains popcorn guilty pleasure.

[exdusm]

alphamare,
Thank you so much for reading and for your kind words. There are many approaches to viewing & understanding the characters. For myself, I have to understand the character at some deep level in order to write the fanfic I want to write, find the symbols and metaphors. As the series progresses, I may have to revise.

wkw99,
Thanks for you kind words. I sign on to everything you have said. I forgot to mention, and I'm so glad you did, Raylan's drug of choice, alcohol. Definitely alcohol abuse. I agree that he does not quite meet the bar for alcoholism, but he is definitely headed that way and not far from it. You have your finger right on some of the moments where we can see the mask falling away. The vulnerability, the emotional nakedness, take my breath away. We need another thread just to discuss the scenes where Raylan is undefended, emotionally naked and vulnerable, however fleeting.

Timothy is so extraordinary and gifted an actor that I am putting my hopes on him that he will not let Raylan become a caricature. Leonard seems to be on board with the need to deviate from the book character because of the reality of transposing to a TV series, possibly more than a few years.

kentuckygirl,
You state precisely why I belive in TO. Ditto, I sense that Tim gets bored very easily with repetition and is looking for ways to be challenged. The character has to struggle and evolve. Your statement: He seems to prefer taking the most complex scenes and reducing them to their bare essentials, trusting his own skills as an actor and the intelligence of the audience.. gave me goosebumps. TO is extraordinary.

Raylan's journey, his character evolution, will determine whether or not he can free himself from the grave Arlo has dug for him.

Back later, maybe here or on the character thread. I don't post often, but I usually post in the wee hours, my version of (punch)-drunk dialing

[mondayschild]

You all get so deeply into the persona that is Raylan. I love reading all of it. You always come up with things that I haven't thought of.

I see Raylan as a man totally committed to his job. By being a marshal, he tries to black out the terribly difficult childhood memories. He wants to be the direct opposite of his father; plus I think he really BELIEVES in the law. But can any of us eradicate all that has gone before?

It is hard, in my experience, to find a person who has had an idyllic life and has had no problems or unhappiness. Surely, we can all relate in some small way with Raylan. Let's face it. For many years, the law is all that Raylan has had that provides him with a sense of stability. Being sent back to Harlan digs up all of the stuff that nightmares are made of. I think he is doing the best that he can.

He was happy with Winona for a while. Happiness in one's life and one's job are what most people strive for. But Raylan is not especially good with intimate relationships. He has had nothing in his early life on which he can pattern this.

When Raylan comes back to Harlan., he has no idea that Winona is there. When he learns that she IS there, he makes the injudicious move of showing up at her house in the middle of the night. She is not happy, to say the least. She thinks she has married a man who can give her all that she wants, and who is the direct opposite of Raylan. But in short order, she comes to Raylan for help and he cannot resist. Let's not forget that Raylan, even though he has always carried a torch for her, was left bitter by the divorce. In season 1, "The Collection," he describes just how miserable the situation was.

But he sees that crimes may have been committed, and he helps her. They are connecting again, little by little. Then Winona makes "The Big Move." She comes to his motel room, removes her ring and seduces him. He has always loved her, so he forgives the fact that she left him for Gary. They pick up where they left off. But this does not change the fact that Raylan has spent the last six years of his life being totally a lawman. Now he has to divide his allegiances. He has to make Winona feel safe and still do his job. There is a big problem here.

I don't know that this problem can be resolved. The fact it they may not be , drives the story. Many want Raylan and Winona to live happily after after, but that is not reasonable. He can never be what she wants, and he deals with it the best he can. I can't blame her for wanting a safe life for herself and her baby, so perhaps she has done the only thing that is right. I would not want to be in either of their shoes.

Leonard's stories tell of a father who sees his sons as often as he can, which is not enough. His Raylan wants nothing to do with their mother. On the TV show, we may see more involvement, because the TV Raylan has kinder feelings toward the mother of his children than the books do.I just see Raylan between a rock and a hard place without the emotional IQ to handle everything.

Does he drink too much? Is he too reckless? Does he fall into bed with a willing woman? Sure. He's human and he's dealing with a lot of pain.

To me, Winona is looking for devotion and safety. I can't really blame her, but then again, Raylan is torn between her need and his job, which is a decision worthy of Solomon. They are both human, and are driven by their own life's needs. Who is right? The dramatic situation that this presents is what makes the story so engaging.

[wkw99]

monday, I agree with a lot of what you've said here, although, I wouldn't say Winona seduces Raylan in that motel room...I think the seduction was happening on both their parts long before she showed up there to act on it. She said as much to him this season when she told him she knew her marriage to Gary was over the night he showed up at her house. What happened in that motel room was inevitable from the moment Art tells Raylan she's right there in Lexington.

As to their future, Yost seems to be more of a romantic than Elmore, who is quite cynical about matters of the heart. With a child involved and their obvious love for and attraction to each other, these two are going to be doing this dance for a long time. I'm not sure you're right that he can never be what she wants. I think if he made a real effort, (less reckless, made her and baby Jiffy Pop a priority) and she did, too, they could come to a place where they could be happy together. I wish we'd get to see more of it play out on screen, but it looks like fanfic will have to suffice.

I also see Raylan as much darker than you do. I understand wanting to gloss over his character flaws, but I can't pretend they aren't there. His inability to consider the consequences his actions may have, to himself and others...not just Winona, but Art and the other marshals as well...have isolated him. While things with Art seem to have improved, and I think Art understands Raylan, their relationship is still not what it would be if Raylan could reign in the side of himself that is so impulsive and reckless. Let's face it, in RL, Raylan wouldn't be a Marshal anymore. He'd've been fired. I wonder what he would do if that ever happened? I can't imagine it would be pretty.

We need another thread just to discuss the scenes where Raylan is undefended, emotionally naked and vulnerable, however fleeting.

And isn't it interesting how many of those moments where he reveals something true come when he's talking to strangers and not to those he's closest to?

exdusm, have you written Justified fanfic? There is far too little of it out there, and I would love to read something new, especially by someone who understands and delves into character. That's what drives a story for me.

[mondayschild]

wkw, thank you for your insights. We have to remember that Raylan and Winona are fictional characters and are subject to the whims of the writers. That being said, there are many real life people to whom we can compare and analyze. People are complicated.

We know little about Winona's early life. I suspect that her upbringing was a lot more normal than Raylan's was. Hence her problems with Raylan's dangerous side. It's understandable that she would want a man whose actions are more measured. Raylan will constantly fight against the dark side of his family and of society. Being a marshal has given him stability and purpose; a chance to eradicate the bad guys and protect the innocent. Every time he takes down a criminal, he takes down Arlo in his mind.

Let's face it. Raylan could have become just like Boyd. He could have followed in the family tradition and become a criminal. Thanks to Helen, he had a chance to escape that life. Every criminal he takes down is a victory for him. And every innocent that he saves is a victory, too.

He had been with Winona for six years. It didn't work out, due to his job and the way he approached it. And the way he left her out. Then he was without her for six years and continued to do his job the only way he knew how to do it. When they got back together, he was supposed to do an about face.
It's pretty hard to change your life on a dime. This is why I sympathize with Raylan. In his job, he is just trying to do what is right; bringing the corrupt to justice and protecting the innocent.

I had hoped that when Winona learned how corrupt "Mr. Perfect" Gary was that she would understand why Raylan has had to do some of the things he has done. And when Raylan learned that he was to become a father, that he would have become a bit more circumspect. But people are the sum total of their experiences. All of the cute banter between them never impressed me. It was a way of circumventing the real differences that they have. Winona is undoubtedly the more rational of the two, but Raylan has very real reasons for doing his job the way that he does. I can't and won't try to ascribe blame to either of them.They both have valid reasons for being the people that they are. If they had counseling that could help them to see each other's point of view, fine. I'm not sure that would be successful.The baby complicates things, and yet is the defining moment. Where do Raylan and Winona go from here? A child transcends the needs of the parents.

[alphamare]

I agree with what you said, monday, but would like to add that I think Raylan uses his badge to justify things his conscience (and other people) wont let him do otherwise. Like the killing of Tommy Bucks-- Raylan would have shot him anyway, but he cornered him and made him draw first. In his own mind, Raylan's not the asshole. He's not on the same level as the common killers he throws in jail, his killings are justified because he's a marshal fighting the rising tide of darkness. He would have let Boyd kill Dickie if he didn't need him to get to Loretta, but it's ok because Dickie is a criminal and Raylan doesn't like him. I think he likes to help certain people, too, like Loretta, just for the sake of it. He's not a white hatted hero 'protecting the innocent' all the time though. He's pretty motivated by his demons and his own self-centered view of the world.

I also think it was so selfish of Winona to ask him to leave his life behind. She's asking him to be something he's not capable of being. He's not a safe kind of guy. She's known that for years. He's never going to be a paper pusher and it would make him miserable to squeeze into that mold. He's reckless. She knew that when she went back to him. He loves his job-- delights in taking the scum off the face of the planet, throwing his weight around with criminals, roughing d-bags up, demanding the respect a marshal gets, being an all around badass. He should WANT to change for a baby, but even if he tries he's really not Ward Cleaver and wont ever be. Gary, even with his stupid decisions, was 'safer' than Raylan. I think that's why she married him. He's a realtor, for christ sake. If you want a steady guy who is never in danger, marry a doctor or a lawyer or an insurance salesman and have babies with him. Don't procreate with the tall drink of alcoholic beverage, brave but reckless man-child marshal who lives and breathes in the midst of some very bad, bad men (and who relishes a good shoot out).

[exdusm]

May 9, 2012 4:06:15 GMT -6 wkw99 said:

And isn't it interesting how many of those moments where he reveals something true come when he's talking to strangers and not to those he's closest to?

exdusm, have you written Justified fanfic? There is far too little of it out there, and I would love to read something new, especially by someone who understands and delves into character. That's what drives a story for me.

wkw99,
I have not put anything out there yet, but I am working on 3 separate fics for Justified. You are so right, there are relatively few stories out there given the wealth of story possibilities and characters to work with.

I did not start watching until Season 1 came out on DVD and, unfortunately had to wait yet again until S2 came out on DVD. I was not going to wait for the 3rd season DVDs, so I purchased episodes and streamed on Amazon. All the delays made writing impossible. After watching S2, I had so many ideas, but I needed some direction from S3.

I was disappointed that so little was forthcoming about Raylan during S3. As mind-blowing as the conclusion of the finale was, I have to say that since S1, I had considered the possibility that what Arlo did might occur, although not in the manner/sequence of events that actually occurred, so it was not really a surprise.

I have since decided I would proceed in an alternate universe mode. Depending on what happens in S4, I may revise..or not. I am not inclined to post in installments unless I know the basic structure/outcome and a thematic structure. It doesn't work for me to start something and say I don't know where it is going. I have to know where I want to go even if the characters end up deciding otherwise. I know how infuriating it is to start reading and get into a fic that is never finished. I love to learn new things while I am writing.

Even if I never publish, the journey is fun for me. Last weekend, in the coffee shop of Barnes & Noble, I read through a book on Ranger training. I can't begin to write about Tim if I don't understand his training/background (how was he selected? what traits did he have? what does he have in his character to survives training? and so on). I know about Marshal training, etc. Rachel Brooks and I are kindred. Boyd is easier to write than Raylan. Winona is extremely difficult because we have no history. I also spent a little learning about Russian prison tattoos and because I might use it.

Seriously, we need to start a list of Raylan's moments when the facade slips. We learn so much through others, as you say, but rarely from Raylan's mouth. How he responds is informative.

[wkw99]

exdusm, I'm afraid MCM and I are guilty of the sin of leaving people hanging in our Raylan/Winona fic. We pretty much have it written to the end, but it needs some editing and she got very busy at work. We're hoping to get that done soon and have the whole thing up. And it's as AU as they come, after the events of S3. But that's okay with us.

As to not knowing much about Winona, when that's the case with a character, I usually just make up a background in my head. If the show writers haven't cared enough to let us know some things, then I figure...what the heck. In my mind, as monday suggests, Winona had a more typical family life than Raylan, but I suspect it may not have been a totally happy one. People from happy homes are generally better at choosing partners and having successful relationships than she seems to be. I suspect there may have been a parent with issues...alcohol or infidelity...but that's just a theory. The only thing we really know besides her having a sister, is that her father is living in S1...because Gary mentions him. I assume her mother may be dead, since she's only mentioned when Raylan is talking to Art in the pilot, and he says Winona came back to KY when her mama got sick.

Tim is pretty much an enigma as far as his private life, too. We know from comments that he hated his father and he died before Tim 'got home to shoot him'. So his background at this point can be created from scratch. I'm impressed that you read a book on Ranger training!

Hope we get to read something of yours in the near future. It's a long time until S4!!

[okeydokey]

May 10, 2012 0:13:46 GMT -6 alphamare said:

I also think it was so selfish of Winona to ask him to leave his life behind. She's asking him to be something he's not capable of being. He's not a safe kind of guy. She's known that for years. He's never going to be a paper pusher and it would make him miserable to squeeze into that mold. He's reckless. She knew that when she went back to him. He loves his job-- delights in taking the scum off the face of the planet, throwing his weight around with criminals, roughing d-bags up, demanding the respect a marshal gets, being an all around badass. He should WANT to change for a baby, but even if he tries he's really not Ward Cleaver and wont ever be. Gary, even with his stupid decisions, was 'safer' than Raylan. I think that's why she married him. He's a realtor, for christ sake. If you want a steady guy who is never in danger, marry a doctor or a lawyer or an insurance salesman and have babies with him. Don't procreate with the tall drink of alcoholic beverage, brave but reckless man-child marshal who lives and breathes in the midst of some very bad, bad men (and who relishes a good shoot out).

I've never understood the argument that she knew what he was when she went back to him. I always see it bet never see those who use it acknowledge that Raylan chose to be with her again too. He also knew who she was and what she wanted and it's equally sefish of him to expect her to do an about face for him. And somehow if she did that would be ok.

Their both just stubborn asses in love. But I don't see what's bad or selfish about not wanting your loved one to be reckless and not come home with extra holes in him if it's not necessary.(again I understand we'd hav no show if this was the case.)

[alphamare]

I suppose you're right-- he kind of fell back in with her too and hurt Ava in the process. Maybe my love for TO is clouding my vision. Although, I think she came to his apartment unprovoked and took off her wedding ring of her own accord. She kinda made the first move.

I think he loves her more than she does him, honestly. She is wishy washy, leaving Raylan for Gary, then leaving Gary for Raylan, then leaving Raylan again. She's a big girl, she should think about what she's doing to other people when she does the things she does. His love for her was enough to pull him away from Ava (who admittedly was kind of a fling, but still, there was history and chemistry there), enough for him to risk his job and freedom when she stole the money and wanted those names run, and enough for him to 'agree' (I think to avoid a fight) to get out of the field. He's her lifeboat... when things get tough, she goes back to him until he starts being too "Raylan" again, then she's gone.

[okeydokey]

I don't think it really matters if she came to his hotel room and made the first move (though i do count him breaking into her home in the pilot as the first move) He's not rendered incapable of saying no this isn't right. He's a big boy too. And he was done with Ava when Boyd got out of jail, it had nothing to do with Winona. He could have took Vasquez's advice to "stay the hell away from Boyd Crowder." and maybe have decent yet brief relationship but as we all know he chose not to answer Ava's call.

As to who loves who more I don't really think that can be measured, but if it is I'd say they are about even. She's saved his life and risked her own freedom for him too not to mention she took care of him after he was shot. And Glynco and getting out of the field was no more about avoiding a fight than it was her idea. She didn't want to go at first and even suggested BEFORE he brought up Glynco thay they take a break bc she didn't want to pressure him about it. So needless to say the whole wishy washy thing doesn't play to me.

And lastly Raylan is the King of not thinking of how his actions affect the people around him. It's really the basis for the whole show, a large part in why he's not with Winona, and the reason why Boyd is free and a hell of a lot of people are dead.

[wkw99]

May 10, 2012 12:16:37 GMT -6 alphamare said:

I suppose you're right-- he kind of fell back in with her too and hurt Ava in the process. Maybe my love for TO is clouding my vision. Although, I think she came to his apartment unprovoked and took off her wedding ring of her own accord. She kinda made the first move.

I think he loves her more than she does him, honestly. She is wishy washy, leaving Raylan for Gary, then leaving Gary for Raylan, then leaving Raylan again. She's a big girl, she should think about what she's doing to other people when she does the things she does. His love for her was enough to pull him away from Ava (who admittedly was kind of a fling, but still, there was history and chemistry there), enough for him to risk his job and freedom when she stole the money and wanted those names run, and enough for him to 'agree' (I think to avoid a fight) to get out of the field. He's her lifeboat... when things get tough, she goes back to him until he starts being too "Raylan" again, then she's gone.

To be fair, it really wasn't Winona who pulled him away from Ava. He stopped taking Ava's calls or seeing her after HIS reckless disregard for the law when he slept with her ended up getting Boyd sprung from prison. That had naught to do with Winona. Raylan and Ava were never going to last anyway and in his mind they were over before he ever slept with Winona.

And let's get some details straight...it was Raylan's idea to get out of the field and go back to Glynco and it wasn't about avoiding a fight. It was about going back to a place where he remembers them being happy. Winona never suggested it, and balked at it at first when he did.

I have to agree with okeydokey here, she's done as much for him as he has for her. She saved his life by going to Art and telling him about Loretta, then, she saved his ass AND his job, by risking arrest herself to go into the house and look for the gun...and that was AFTER she'd left him.

It isn't a contest anyway. They're two grown adults who chose to get back into this relationship (and I agree with okey again, he started it by breaking into her house and scaring her husband to death just so he could talk to her.) She isn't wishy washy....she thought she could stop loving Raylan, but she can't. When he came back into her life she realized that what she had with Gary could never measure up to Raylan, and now, even as she left him, she tells him she knows she'll never love anyone the way she loves him.

I've never understood the argument that she knew what he was when she went back to him. I always see it bet never see those who use it acknowledge that Raylan chose to be with her again too. He also knew who she was and what she wanted and it's equally sefish of him to expect her to do an about face for him. And somehow if she did that would be ok.

Sigh. Of course it would be okay, because that's what women are supposed to do, change for their men. Ugh. I am so tired of Winona getting smacked on because she's strong enough to leave a man who she loves desperately but who isn't there for her emotionally (or physically most of the time) and who brings danger onto her and their unborn child. She gave him every opportunity to show her that she and that child were a priority and, forget Glynco...he couldn't even take an afternoon off to look at houses.

I love Raylan dearly, but as boyfriend/husband material...he sucks.

[mondayschild]

All of you have made wonderful observations here. But the one thing I want to know is, why the hell didn't they use birth control? That was so mindblowingly (I know, spell check. That's not a real word.) irresponsible. Winona was still married to Gary, and Raylan certainly wasn't ready to be a father either.
They hinted around about baby names, etc., and they both seemed over the moon when she told him she was pregnant, but in retrospect, I think they were very foolish.

[bookperson39]

I wuz wondering about this as well. No one else mentioned it, so I had a "mousy moment"....rare....and didn't bring it up. For two people who can't figure out where they were going with each other it seems REALLY irresponsible to bring a child into all this. As you say, they both seemed really touched by the idea and happy and then....kaboom.

Maybe it's a case of bad writing by men? Whaddya think? They thought it was a cool idea and then had a heckuva time writing it into the plot.

[wkw99]

Maybe they were foolish...or maybe they unconsciously craved the one thing that will connect them forever...I don't care because that is going to be one beautiful baby. ;D I can't wait to meet Baby Givens.

To be fair, from what Yost said, he and TO (especially TO) liked the idea and they threw it in at the end of S2 just to see where it might go.

[alphamare]

More good points. I love that we all take different things from such a seemingly simple story. I think the whole thing is so sad. I hope Baby Givens' pure innocence will bring everyone together.

My theory is maybe they were just so vigorous with their efforts the birth control failed. That, or no contraception known to man can stop a determined Givens sperm from getting it's egg. Either one seems likely. I'd like to think they tried to prevent it, though.

[bookperson39]

I sort of think the vibes between them when she told him would have been a bit different if they had been vigilant in using birth control.

"Vigorous with their efforts" sound like a good excuse, however! LOL

[wkw99]

I agree...book. I don't think they were using anything to prevent it, ...otherwise surely he would've said "I thought you..." or.. "I should have..." or even just.."Oops." LOL.

I like to think they were so consumed by passion that they just lost their minds for a bit and never even considered it. ;D

[mondayschild]

Sorry, I have to disagree. I can understand once in the heat of passion, but after that, in this day and age, protection is a MUST. They must have just forgotten about their past history and thought that the second time around was going to work out perfectly.

Believe me, I have been there. Without going into grizzly detail, no one does a complete about face and becomes the perfect partner. They just were not thinking AT ALL.