What' do you want for Season 4?

[alphamare]

Here are my thoughts on what should happen in season 4.

I'd like to see a season with more focus on Raylan, not so many side conversations. I'd love to see Raylan truely off-duty. Hanging out, not killing people, being a normal guy. Going on a date with whats-her-face-bartender. Go fishin' or dancin'. Something other than drink and work and stare Boyd down.

I'd like him to meet a real woman. One who could take him or leave him, but has smoking hot sexual chemistry with him (and not only so I can see more nearly-naked Olyphant, but that's an extra bonus I wont argue with!). A beat cop? Military chick or former-brat?

I'd like to see more of Tim and Rachel.

I would dig it if Winona turns out to be having Gary's baby. They were all tangled up for a bit... might could be his kid, too It's something that's been plaguing me since that sneaking into the hotel room sex scene. There's HOPE! Certainly takes care of the baby/ annoying ex and throws a heap of heartache in there for US Marshall Excited-new-daddy. And, if she knew and lied to get Raylan to settle down and take her back, even better, as far as I'm concerned. Turns her into such a heel.

Whatcha think? What do you guys want to happen?

[wkw99]

Aww...why would you want to do that to poor Raylan, alpahmare? He wants this baby.

Anyway, the baby isn't Gary's...sorry. We did a timeline last year that proves it. The child is Raylan's, and although they'll probably (Hey,like I've said before, I'll ship these two until one of them is dead) never be together again on the show, they will always have an undeniable connection to each other, through that child. I truly believe they are the loves of each others lives and it's a real tragedy that they can't find a way to work things out.

As for S4....

More Wynn Duffy!!! That opening scene of the finale was AWESOME!!!!!!

I want Limehouse to reveal to Raylan what he knows about his mother.

I want to see a scene with Raylan holding his baby for the first time. The whole fatherhood thing has been a big push for TO and he would totally rock that scene.

No new characters. I think we've got villains and Marshals aplenty...work with what we've got. More Tim, Rachel, and Art.

I like Yosts idea of three 4 episode arcs rather than one long season arc.

[Dolphin]

There are only 13 precious eps ... don't think Yost and writing crew would go there w/paternity of Winona's baby. (She is mother of 2 of Raylan's kids in the books.)

Agree with Work's list with more Wynn Duffy in the no. 1 slot. Please add (in no particular order):

1) Rachael and Tim. And Art of course.
2) Johnny Crowder.
3) A new villain as worthy as Mags and Quarles.
4) One Raylan centric, clear-cut Emmy reel episode for TO.
5) At least a check in on Dickie, Dewey. And maybe a little prison dust up between Arlo and Dickie that we at least hear about.

[bookperson39]

Okay, so I'm a romantic chump. I would love for things to work out with Winona and the baby and still have the integrity of the story and characters intact. I know, that's asking a lot, but these folks have approved that they can provide a lot! LOL

I agree with a more Raylan-centric season and a return to the home office and more Rachel, Tim and Art. The three-arc thing would be good. I really didn't mind the episodic nature of the first season. My favorites, in order of "like" are:

Season 2
Season 1
Season 3

[lovejustified]

I want characters I can relate to. In the first two seasons I thought 'I know people like that' and 'I know people who have problems like that'. This season was so dark with whores, and perverts, and gangsters That it was less meaningful for me and harder for me to be invested in the story. Even characters I used to relate to that I no longer care about.

More Raylan.

I want the white-hatted hero, who came riding into town on his big black horse, back. I didn't like crossing lines and I want everybody to cross right back over. I want S1 Raylan who can shoot or talk his way out of a jam and doesn't need to constantly have his butt saved by devine intervention (or meat cleavers).

More Raylan.

I want Raylan to be in the middle of some dicey marshal situation when he gets the call that Winona's in labor AND I WANT HIM TO WALK AWAY FROM WHAT HE IS DOING AND GO TO HER AND JIFFY POP.

Oh, yeah .... And MORE RAYLAN.

[wkw99]

I want Raylan to be in the middle of some dicey marshal situation when he gets the call that Winona's in labor AND I WANT HIM TO WALK AWAY FROM WHAT HE IS DOING AND GO TO HER AND JIFFY POP.

Word, word. 1000x WORD.

[ripetebook]

Can not agree more - more Raylan. But much as we love Winona..with NZ schedule and the way they wrote her...they are done except for the baby and that emotional forever tie. I want more of the bar abd the bartender. To me she is the best of Ava (digs the man as he is) and Winona(not afraid to call him on his shit) plus the lady digs our white-hatted hero.

Agree we have a great many criminals already in house so let's delve into Limehouse...he intrigues me. And duffy wants to continue Quarles plans...work with what we have left from this season...characters we already know and like. That would allow for more Raylan since he is SOOOO aware of each of them.

Tell us the secrets behind Frances and maybe even Helen. They seem done with Arlo...but in prison won't they make sure he gets his meds and if Boyd deserts Arlo...would be fun if Arlo turns back to his son and SINKS the Boyd/Ava plan.

Just mostly...much more Raylan...OMG did he look good this season...so more undressed Raylan...which means more ladies and loving for the marshal.

[wkw99]

I like Lindsay fine, but the LAST thing I want to see is Raylan turn into some kind of ladies man. It's completely against the character we've been shown. I don't need to see him with his shirt off that badly.

As to NZ...who knows if her show is even picked up or makes it...I wish her the best of luck, but she might end up more available than we think.

[bookperson39]

Please, no more Lindsey! Okay for a quick roll in the hay, but not for life. Okay....I'm a snob.

I agree with lovejustified's assessment that there were too many dark and sinister villains, some for a very short time, running around the streets of Harlan and Lexington. I would like to see at least one arc next year where Raylan is the hero again and, instead of being shuffled around by fate, creates his own destiny! At least until he needs to be buffeted around a bit for story purposes, poor baby.

[okeydokey]

Apr 12, 2012 15:40:01 GMT -6 bookperson39 said:

Please, no more Lindsey! Okay for a quick roll in the hay, but not for life. Okay....I'm a snob.

Oh, Lindsey's fine. lol I doubt it will ever be anything serious, but she is in pretty close proximity to Raylan so it's kind of convenient. Now, I don't see her as an amalgamation of either Ava or Winona but her and Raylan have good chemistry. So, it'll be interesting to see how he screws things up....cause he will.

[kc4to]

The underlying theme seems to be MORE RAYLAN! Can't argue with that! No offense to the other terrific actors but the man steals every scene he is in. Yes definitely dig deeper into Limehouse.Think he, Duffy and Boyd can cause enough trouble, no need for new villians. And Ava is getting to be quite the bada**! Interested to see how her character evolves. The stuff Limehouse knows about Raylan's mother. Gotta have something about Johnny and Boyd. Anxious to see how they will have the Winona/baby/Raylan written. Would like to see the man have some down time once in a while, without the threat of a gun in his face, though he does not seem to be the type to have hobbies!

I love how they show his attributes and his faults; some shows like this, someone is all good and seemingly perfect; no one is that perfect.

Keep the hat and the boots and the jeans. Sigh*

[motorcitymade]

I want to see "Raylan" getting out of a steamy shower dripping wet, with only mist and a tiny towel obscuring the not for basic cable parts. ( Ahhhh...they 'ol tiny towel fantasy conjured up by Clovergirl and Me....)

Other than that I completely echo what LJ said. I'm so pissed about how they poisoned Winona I might never be truly emotionally invested "into" the "show" again.

I am beating a dead horse but my god; after the year of personal attacks and mud slinging that Natalie Zea had to endure from that psycho troll
WHY did Graham and company completely fuck up the character she worked so hard to develop while under so much public scrutiny? Natalie and "Winona" deserved better that what the writers threw out there and I don't think Graham and co. even "get" that at all.

It's my dead horse and I'll beat it if I want to. LOL.

[alphamare]

Good gravy.... wet Marshal holding a washcloth over his privates in the steam. o.O What time's that on? That's hot. Might need to write a fan fic centered on just that.... whew doggie.

[wkw99]

MCM...I'm not quite as ticked as you have been...but I'm gradually getting there. A comment Graham made really pissed me off. Something like "We ended with he and Winona in a good place and he can sleep with other women." I honestly think that was the whole point of her idiotic storyline AND the 3 line note. They just want Raylan to be free to fuck around. And we all know that's all it will be, because he's forever in love with Winona. It's crap.

Why can't a show explore a sexy MONOGAMOUS relationship? I completely do not understand why they felt the need to split these two up. I think they're far more interesting together, trying to make sense of it all.

[motorcitymade]

Alpha, some were here is a thread back from last May where Clovergirl and I came up with that. I think it was in one of the first threads ever...it's a hoot if you can did it up like the lost ark. I think it was in "Sartorial" or some thing around that time.

[okeydokey]

Apr 30, 2012 4:14:48 GMT -6 wkw99 said:

MCM...I'm not quite as ticked as you have been...but I'm gradually getting there. A comment Graham made really pissed me off. Something like "We ended with he and Winona in a good place and he can sleep with other women." I honestly think that was the whole point of her idiotic storyline AND the 3 line note. They just want Raylan to be free to fuck around. And we all know that's all it will be, because he's forever in love with Winona. It's crap.

Why can't a show explore a sexy MONOGAMOUS relationship? I completely do not understand why they felt the need to split these two up. I think they're far more interesting together, trying to make sense of it all.

Well, to be fair I think the whole point of her storyline was to accomodate the fact that Natalie didn't want to be a regular anymore, not to get Raylan to the point where he can sleep around with other women. I think that was just seen as a benefit to a situation they might not have gone to otherwise if she had signed on for multiple years. I think on one hand Yost is a Raylan/Winona shipper but on the other he likes to live vicariously through Raylan so...

Also from what Yost has said they really want Lindsey back, so depending on how they structure the story for season 4 it's possible they would have a "relationship" longer than his with Ava or Winona's combined. I could see them ending with the birth of his child, or by bringing Karen back into the picture. (which I know you hate. lol) But he did mention the possibility of bringing her back and that part of his life would get messy. Yost also now says Raylan and Karen in fact have slept together when in the beginning of season 3 he said that wasn't the case.

[wkw99]

Well, to be fair I think the whole point of her storyline was to accomodate the fact that Natalie didn't want to be a regular anymore, not to get Raylan to the point where he can sleep around with other women. I think that was just seen as a benefit to a situation they might not have gone to otherwise if she had signed on for multiple years. I think on one hand Yost is a Raylan/Winona shipper but on the other he likes to live vicariously through Raylan so...

Also from what Yost has said they really want Lindsey back, so depending on how they structure the story for season 4 it's possible they would have a "relationship" longer than his with Ava or Winona's combined. I could see them ending with the birth of his child, or by bringing Karen back into the picture. (which I know you hate. lol) But he did mention the possibility of bringing her back and that part of his life would get messy. Yost also now says Raylan and Karen in fact have slept together when in the beginning of season 3 he said that wasn't the case.

Maybe if they had given Natalie a decent storyline she wouldn't have been so anxious to leave. I think it was a combination of things, but mostly the stupid writers not knowing what to do with them as a couple, or her apart from him. I can think of a dozen things. Oh, well.

As to Lindsay, I like her, I like the actress. They have good chemistry and it makes sense in context. But you're right, I won't be happy if Gugino is back. I thought her character was one-dimensional and basically an example of everything that's wrong with portrayals of women in law enforcement. Chasing a suspect in a tight skirt and heels would NEVER happen on the job...supervisor or no. CG is in another series, so maybe she won't be available.

[bookperson39]

Bless your heart's ladies. I just wanted to come across into the computer screen when I read that Graham thought that Winona and Raylan were in a "good place". If that's good, please don't write the story of my life!!!

These two were fantastic together. Repeat after me....no Lindsey, no Lindsey, no Lindsey.

(sorry, I getting over a Dread Disease and am still weak-headed from steroids, antibiotics and codeine cough syrup. whoopee)

Bring back the original cast, give 'em some good story lines and quit fartin' around with little boy ideas of what's cool! so there.

[kentuckygal]

wkw99

I want to see a scene with Raylan holding his baby for the first time. The whole fatherhood thing has been a big push for TO and he would totally rock that scene.

Raylan holding his baby for the first time.... Can you imagine the tenderness TO would convey in that moment?... We would all dissolve into helpless puddles of goo.

Definitely more Raylan-centric episodes.

And more scenes of Art and Raylan slouching awkwardly and endearingly toward a manly men who fight crime, swig booze and bust each other's chops father-sonish relationship.

Is it wrong that I am not invested in either Tim or Rachel?

Also, more Lindsay the bartender. She's a refreshing character. (I may be in the minority on this board.)

As much as I despise Arlo, I suppose attention must be paid. Not for his sake, but for Raylan's. Whether Raylan ever acknowledges it or not, that self-centered, abusive SOB inflicted real damage on his family. Exploring how our hero handles the contrast between watching Arlo deteriorate while a new vulnerable life comes into his world could be very poignant.

Four-episode story arcs sound like a good change up.

With all these personal elements of Raylan's life in play, I'd still like to see a return of his old self-confident swagger and badass competence.... at least occasionally.

Though I enjoyed Dickie Bennett's story arc and especially Jeremy Davies's performance, Raylan's scathingly succint summation of Dickie's character followed by a bullet in the leg, seemed like an appropriate send-off.

More Dewey Crowe, albeit in small doses.

Now that Jim Beaver seems to be done with Supernatural, will we see more of his newly elected sheriff? How deep into Boyd's pocket will he nestle or will he balk at being a bought out lawman? (...In a camp where the sheriff can be bought for a half a can of bacon grease...)

[mondayschild]

kentuckygal, I agree with all that you have said. There are so many unfinished seams in Raylan's life. ( Some will be handled with incarceration, LOL) I hope that seasons from now, Raylan will have closure on at least some of them. The things that have made Raylan's life so difficult have been often pushed aside so that he can deal with his job. But life is not just about one's job, and Raylan needs to reconcile with his own problems and the people who have made him what he is, and what he isn't.

'book, I hope you are feeling better. However, I don't get your adamant dislike of Lindsay. No one is suggesting that she should be Raylan's next wife. I don't expect him to marry, ever again. But he is a man with needs, and I don't mean just sexual needs. Lindsay is a strong woman, and I don't see her kicking Raylan out of bed just because he doesn't meet every one of her expectations. She has said that she knows there are problems in his life.

Elmore Leonard, in his books, portrays a man who has no lost love for his former wife. On Justified, he is till holding out hope. He and Winona love each other, but she has called an end to their being together. I don't see a reconciliation, even though he keeps trying to communicate. The series would have to go on for many more years before I could see him giving his total affection to someone else. However, I would like to see him share time with a woman with whom he could have fun with and who would accept him for who he is. He is flawed, but who isn't? There is someone out there who can bring him a modicum of happiness and I hope we get to see some of that.

[mondayschild]

BTW, kentuckygal, I actually saw a few scenes that were Emmy worthy this season. And one of them was his confrontation with Dickie at Loretta's house. Another was his interaction with Messer when he went to arrest him (both his speech before and his dialogue with him as he leads Messer to his car.) An Emmy doesn't have to go to the person who does the most scenery chewing..

There were scenes with Duffy and Quarles, as well. Even if some of us don't count this as our favorite season, there were some extraordinary moments.

[Dolphin]

Apr 29, 2012 21:09:58 GMT -6 motorcitymade said:

I want to see "Raylan" getting out of a steamy shower dripping wet, with only mist and a tiny towel obscuring the not for basic cable parts. ( Ahhhh...they 'ol tiny towel fantasy conjured up by Clovergirl and Me....)

Other than that I completely echo what LJ said. I'm so pissed about how they poisoned Winona I might never be truly emotionally invested "into" the "show" again.

I am beating a dead horse but my god; after the year of personal attacks and mud slinging that Natalie Zea had to endure from that psycho troll
WHY did Graham and company completely fuck up the character she worked so hard to develop while under so much public scrutiny? Natalie and "Winona" deserved better that what the writers threw out there and I don't think Graham and co. even "get" that at all.

It's my dead horse and I'll beat it if I want to. LOL.

I am *still not recovered* from being cheated out of my shot of a nekkid Raylan in the bathtub (with his boots still on) when his kidneys almost got snatched! Yeah, I read the book and was set up for total disappointment. (Dang, I could have easily staged that shot! Elmore Leonard would have loved it almost as much as us!)

So anything denoting as much TO skin as FX allows would be a-okay with me, too! In fact, necessary!!!

Beat away, MCM. You're justified.

[Dolphin]

May 1, 2012 23:41:09 GMT -6 mondayschild said:

BTW, kentuckygal, I actually saw a few scenes that were Emmy worthy this season. And one of them was his confrontation with Dickie at Loretta's house. Another was his interaction with Messer when he went to arrest him (both his speech before and his dialogue with him as he leads Messer to his car.) An Emmy doesn't have to go to the person who does the most scenery chewing..

There were scenes with Duffy and Quarles, as well. Even if some of us don't count this as our favorite season, there were some extraordinary moments.

I loved his scenes with Duffy this season. I'm thinking 'Slaughterhouse' will be his submission ep. The Harlan Roulette scene was awesome. He had some good scenes with Limehouse and Quarles, too. Juxtapose those angry scenes against his final subtle scenes w/Arlo, Boyd, and Winona? He showed a lot of range that Emmy voters love.

I don't know if he had a winning ep this season ... I'm thinking not. I hope 'Slaughterhouse' gets him nominated. It should. And these writers had better showcase him in one awesome Emmy worthy ep for S4. They know the drill. Just give him the script. He can act the hell out of it.

[exdusm]

May 1, 2012 23:31:04 GMT -6 mondayschild said:

kentuckygal, I agree with all that you have said. There are so many unfinished seams in Raylan's life. ( Some will be handled with incarceration, LOL) I hope that seasons from now, Raylan will have closure on at least some of them. The things that have made Raylan's life so difficult have been often pushed aside so that he can deal with his job. But life is not just about one's job, and Raylan needs to reconcile with his own problems and the people who have made him what he is, and what he isn't.

ITA, mondayschild. I have many ideas about what I would like to see in Season 4, but first I just need to sort out my thoughts about Raylan Givens. BTW, I have so enjoyed reading this thread. Absoulutely, Yost & Co need to understand it is about the man in the hat: we had fun in Season 3, yo, but let's get back on track, writers.

Raylan Given, created by that supremely, supernaturally and obscenely gifted actor, Timothy Olyphant , is one of the best realized and most complex, textured and nuanced characters I have ever seen in a TV series. Far more than even Fox Mulder in The X-Files (TXF), my only other favorite show of fannish investment. I love the character Tim has created, so real he lives and breathes beyond the TV screen.

Bear with me for now, I am just sorting out my thoughts. I have posted for years about TXF, but am just now getting started with Justified, the best show ever, IMO. I'm starting this way because a lot of discussion about Raylan and Winona and Jiffy-Pop and will they or wont they..and should they..?

Raylan Givens is a walking disaster. A ticking time-bomb. Implosion or explosion? The question is: how are the pieces going to re-integrate (and what will be the impact on the narrative), or will he continue blowing people up, and the audience become bored/lose interest (as I believe so will Tim).

'The Marshal' is a fearless, brave, swaggering good guy in the white hat. 'The Marshal' acts, does not (at least in his mind) need to dwell on those messy details, even if they have consequences for others. Consequences, shmonsequences. Despite his cool, his swagger, his apparent confidence that floats his facile, dismissive attitude about consequences/small details, Raylan Givens' motivations, manner of dress, swagger, white hat- even questioning his standard to the level of those Marshals of old- all come together as a collective armor, like putting on the superhero costume, to protect him from dealing with himself, not just with his past, but his emotions about his past. That is not to say that he is not a hero and not courageous. Clearly he is both. Clearly he wants to rid the streets of the bad guys, do his job. But Raylan is emotionally stunted, seriously self-destructive, very confused.

My POV is that Raylan does not love himself. He has not come to terms with his past, Raylan has never really faced himself. He loves The Marshal. The Marshal of old was in tune with the uncomplicated black & white commandment of the old west.. survival. That lawman is out of tune with the complicated, messy grey & fuzzy 20-21st century. Absolutely there are times when he is doing the right thing as a law enforcement officer. He recognizes impending danger and has to act. His reflexes give him the edge. Raylan does have to try to protect Loretta. That is rational. What is not rational is his recklessness before the fact. He puts others in danger. He is not 'down' with the team concept. The truth is, Raylan is not acting rationally as a Marshal. To paraphrase Chief Mullen: "you are a terrible Marshal..but a great Lawman."

There is no question of his love for Winona and his feelings about his unborn child. He wants a family. But the family he imagines cannot fill the hole he has inside and vanquish the darkness/demons that have taken residence within. Raylan takes a lot (his "grind is exhausting" and draining, according to Winona) but he does not give back much.

Winona's concerns and fears do not fully compute with him. At times Raylan is maddeningly clueless, blindered and willfully dense. He is emotionally tone deaf to those around him, particularly those who care about him and love him. He is both protector and endangerer, to paraphrase a line from TXF. In fairness, the writers did not define Winona clearly and it is hard to grasp what it is she wants of of life and of Raylan. Also, in fairness, I belive she can manage the strength to live with Deputy U.S. Marshal Givens. But she cannot live or be with 'The Marshal', because 'The Marshal' cannot let Raylan Givens out of Aunt Helen's closet. He is not strong enough yet. Raylan is still trapped inside his hiding place at Aunt Helen's place. The chronololgically grown-up Raylan is living a vicarious life: 'The Marshal' is standing guard.

One of the most poignant scenes in the series is Raylan's dawning insight that he set a chain of events in motion by going after Tommy Bucks. He shares some responsibility for
people dying as a result of his actions. Making that threat to Tommy Bucks, going after TB in the manner he did and
forcing a psychopath into a situation where he (TB) is going to draw down are actions of a self-obsessed, self-destructinve, irrational person who is way out of step with his badge, his oath, and his colleagues. That there will be fall-out for his office, his Chief, etc is beyond his reckoning in the moment. The same applies to sleeping with Ava and other actions where he does not consider the consequences.

It means that he is driven by impulses we have not yet had fully revealed to us. Boyd, Raylan's dark shadow self, points with laser-like precision at Raylan's overiding motivation: RAGE. With that, we understand why Raylan is relentless, driven and self-absorbed.

Raylan is not a sociopath, however. He feels, he cares, he has sensitivity, and he has a conscience. The line is blurred sometimes. 'The Marshal' rarely troubles with such issues and has no patience nor suffers the fools who do.

Raylan can become the great Marshal, and let The Lawman
stay in the past. Protecting the little boy.

[alphamare]

WOW, exudism. That's some pretty impressive character deconstruction you've done there. I like it. You see down to details waaaaaaaaaaaaay way beyond what I did. This is good. Very good. You're right, Raylan is a scared, damaged little boy hiding behind 'justice' and clinging to false morality like a life raft in a sea of self-hatred and daddy issues.

This was so INSIGHTFUL. Thank you.