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Post by wkw99 on Feb 15, 2014 6:19:03 GMT -6
We've been doing a lot of discussion about Raylan's character this season, so I thought it might be nice to have a thread just for that. I took the liberty of copying monday's last post here, since that's what i'm responding to. (BTW Monday, maybe the double-posting is the site making up for lost time with you!  Glad you are back!!) Maybe I'm at an advantage in this dark turn the show has apparently taken, because I never saw Raylan as a 'hero', or at least I never saw him as a flawless hero. Raylan wants justice, but HE wants to be the one deciding what that justice entails. Let's take things one season at a time. S1*When we meet Raylan, he's goading Tommy Bucks into pulling on him so that he has an excuse to shoot and kill him. Is Tommy Bucks a bad man? Absolutely. But what Raylan does is not part of his job. What he does is manipulate a situation so that he can take care of it the way HE wants to, not the way the law says he should. Do cops do that all the time? Some probably. Does it make 'em heroes? Nope. (But it does make for good entertainment!) *Later in the pilot, Raylan does pretty much the same thing to Boyd, although Boyd lives. *Then, he sleeps with the witness, Ava. This is the first time we see Art angry and disappointed in Raylan, and the reason he's ready to ship him back to Miami at the end of S1. And that's all just in the pilot and first two episodes. LOL. I'm not coming up with much else the rest of the season, except that while he's on suspension he goes after Duffy and Arnett to leave Gary alone. S2He shoots Pilar in the leg, and rather than taking her in, he flies her back to Miami, dumping her on Gio. Dan Grant issues a threat to Gio (and makes me wonder if Raylan and Dan didn't make a better team than Raylan and Art). When he catches the guy who has Loretta, Raylan threatens to set him on fire. Again, makes for good entertainment (I do love that scene), but his method wouldn't be in the Marshal Handbook. He helps Winona put the money back. That's a biggie, in most people's book. For me, it isn't as 'morally questionable' as other things he's done because they were setting something right, but Art does see them, and that puts another wedge between Raylan and his boss. He trails Boyd around because he has a personal interest, not because he has any evidence Boyd is doing anything wrong. Later in S2, rather than telling Winona the truth about the plot to kill her (and Raylan with her) and taking Gary in, in formation which also might have ended with Wynn Duffy behind bars, Raylan hides that information and sends Gary off. He goes after Dickie Bennett when he knows he's the one who killed Helen. He drags him out into the woods to execute him. The only thing that stops him is the memory of his aunt and what she did for him. Knowing this isn't what Helen would want, he stops and arrests Dickie instead. Then he goes after Loretta, without calling the local authorities, and even though he isn't on the job. His intentions here ARE heroic, but, if it wasn't for Winona filling Art in on what was going on and where he was, and Art responding to that by sending in the cavalry in the form of the Marshal's office, Raylan would be dead. That's the first two seasons. Did I miss anything? |
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Post by lg66 on Feb 15, 2014 12:12:26 GMT -6
Don't forget his visit to Gary's office pretending to be looking for a house and checking out the
market, then delivering that steely eyed threat to keep Wynonna outta his shit storm...My favorite
Raylan look.... Lol.... I love TO's expressions..... Half the time he needn't say a word....
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Post by kmmo on Feb 16, 2014 21:14:06 GMT -6
wkw- I've never really thought of Raylan as a hero either. He's a very flawed person who does things his own way. He believes that if he does it for the right reasons, then it's okay. But he's the guy you want on your side when you're in trouble. (Winona went right to him when she needed help with the money she stole, she knew he would help her). He is relentless in his pursuit of what he thinks is right. He doesn't seem to be afraid of anything- except a stable relationship with a woman, and a baby.
I would want him on my side if I were in trouble.
He has done so many stupid things, but Art knows that Raylan is doing what he believes is right. Art follows the rules. I really don't think Raylan could ever do Art's job. He would have to follow the rules.
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Post by mondayschild on Feb 16, 2014 23:48:18 GMT -6
When I call Raylan a hero, it's not in the classic sense. He wears the proper hat, of course, but he doesn't follow protocol. But ladies, you know you fell in love from the first scene of episode 1. You were hooked. I said previously that Raylan was a hero with feet of clay. He's human. He has flaws. But, damn, he gets things done, even if the means are sometimes unethical. This is what makes him so compelling. We wouldn't watch otherwise.
wkw, thank you for welcoming me back. It is very kind of you because I am sometimes a thorn in the side of others who post. This is the wonder of this board. We are able to agree or disagree and still respect each other. I love Raylan, warts and all. He has been my hero even though he is misguided sometimes. His background is so complex. It informs the way he reacts to situations that he encounters on the job and in his personal life. I'm sad that we have only one more season to straighten all of this out. But that's the way life is. Some of us never get it right. Maybe Raylan will and maybe he won't. I don't see him riding off happily into the sunset, but I would like to see the possibility.
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Post by wkw99 on Feb 17, 2014 6:11:04 GMT -6
monday, my experience with Raylan was a little different. I didn't see S1 until I'd already watched the first two episodes of S2...so, the Raylan I fell in love with was the one saving Loretta and romancing Winona. Maybe that explains a lot. Monday...you are not a thorn in anyone's side! I've loved our 'debates' about Raylan, Winona, and all other aspects of this show, and I'm so glad you're back with us. Now we just need to get bookperson and riptebook back! |
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Post by siss13 on Feb 17, 2014 10:47:08 GMT -6
I've never looked at Raylan as a hero, that's why I love the show. For me, hero's can be boring to watch on television if they are too perfect. Raylan is a good guy, a mediocre Marshall, and a reliable character when someone needs assistance. If he claims he going to do something, he gets the job done. He just does not always follow the law to get the job done.
Due to his upbringing and family history, I can understand his flaws, even if I don't like them. And yes, he makes horrible choices, especially when it comes to women, which probably makes him seem more human in a lot of ways.
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Post by kmmo on Feb 17, 2014 18:24:47 GMT -6
I guess it depends on your definition of "hero". Most heroes have flaws.
I wonder too, does Raylan think of himself as a hero? It seems like he does,at least from what I get from TO's interpretation. When Alison tells him that he's a hero, he looks so pleased with himself,like he's saying "why yes I am, thanks for noticing". But the look he gives her when she says he's the one setting the fires- priceless.
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Post by Dolphin on Feb 17, 2014 21:55:35 GMT -6
I think in this television age of the anti-hero (Walter White, Dexter, Don Draper, Tony Soprano, Patrick Jane ... so many others), Raylan is a hero, flawed though he may be. Offering Art up as a hero really demonstrated how far Raylan has fallen in terms of what he will and will not do. But I'd hate to see the writers make him into an anti-hero for the remainder of the show. There are a lot of blood thirsty fan out there who would love it. (I figure that is why Boyd is there ... to feed some blood to those fans.) I don't want see Raylan follow Boyd's path into 'never leave Harlan alive.' I don't think that is what Elmore Leonard would do. I do think Raylan will fall some more before the end of this season ... and maybe have to redeem himself in the final season. I just hope it's not to avenge the death of Art or one of the other marshals. (That is my fear.)  |
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Post by mondayschild on Feb 17, 2014 22:36:11 GMT -6
Dolphin, this is what I'm looking for. Redemption. Maybe that's unrealistic or too pat an ending. But we have watched Raylan struggle and win and struggle and fail. I'd like to see a grand, selfless act by Raylan that would show us that we have not underestimated the worth of this less than perfect man.
And wkw, I'm glad you feel that I am not a thorn in anyone's side. (I'm feeling a bit grouchy this winter, what with the constant snow and bitter temperatures.) I don't mean to be argumentative, but sometimes I am. I just dearly love the character of Raylan. He is such a wonderful creation. I just don't want the end of season 6 to leaving us feel that it wasn't worth it. (People are still arguing about the last episodes of The Sopranos and Seinfeld.) I really wish Elmore Leonard was still with us. We are just going to have to hope that the writers are channeling him big time because I think he would know how this all should work out.
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Post by wkw99 on Feb 18, 2014 6:01:49 GMT -6
Dolphin, this is what I'm looking for. Redemption. Maybe that's unrealistic or too pat an ending. But we have watched Raylan struggle and win and struggle and fail. I'd like to see a grand, selfless act by Raylan that would show us that we have not underestimated the worth of this less than perfect man. And wkw, I'm glad you feel that I am not a thorn in anyone's side. (I'm feeling a bit grouchy this winter, what with the constant snow and bitter temperatures.) I don't mean to be argumentative, but sometimes I am. I just dearly love the character of Raylan. He is such a wonderful creation. I just don't want the end of season 6 to leaving us feel that it wasn't worth it. (People are still arguing about the last episodes of The Sopranos and Seinfeld.) I really wish Elmore Leonard was still with us. We are just going to have to hope that the writers are channeling him big time because I think he would know how this all should work out. As long as that grand selfless act doesn't involve him dying, I'm good with it. (See my tag line) But, I'm not sure that's 'what Elmore would do'. In Elmore's world...people don't change. Which means Raylan is gonna go on being Raylan. While he does put others first at times, (S2 Winona and Loretta come to mind.) He's not generally selfless. There's a reason he does what he does. We can argue whether it's because he's a hero, or because he just wants to prove he's not his daddy, or because he has a personal sense of justice...but he gets something out of it. If Elmore was writing this, the ending probably wouldn't be much of an 'ending'. By that I mean, all the loose ends wouldn't be wrapped up in a satisfying way. Most of his books I've read just kind of ... stop. LOL. Now, a television show is different, and Yost may feel the need to be a bit more definitive about it. I don't think they'll kill Raylan. I don't think Elmore would, and I hope they won't. But I wouldn't be surprised to have more than one other character fall, this season or next, Boyd included. Even Walton doesn't think Boyd will - or should - survive. I hope Elmore's death doesn't make them think Raylan should die with him. Yikes. I've pretty much resigned myself to Raylan and Winona remaining apart...always in love...but apart. (Surprise me, Writers!!) My best hope that he somehow finds a way to be a good daddy to that little girl. |
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Post by Dolphin on Feb 18, 2014 22:52:42 GMT -6
Dolphin, this is what I'm looking for. Redemption. Maybe that's unrealistic or too pat an ending. But we have watched Raylan struggle and win and struggle and fail. I'd like to see a grand, selfless act by Raylan that would show us that we have not underestimated the worth of this less than perfect man. And wkw, I'm glad you feel that I am not a thorn in anyone's side. (I'm feeling a bit grouchy this winter, what with the constant snow and bitter temperatures.) I don't mean to be argumentative, but sometimes I am. I just dearly love the character of Raylan. He is such a wonderful creation. I just don't want the end of season 6 to leaving us feel that it wasn't worth it. (People are still arguing about the last episodes of The Sopranos and Seinfeld.) I really wish Elmore Leonard was still with us. We are just going to have to hope that the writers are channeling him big time because I think he would know how this all should work out. I'm hoping Raylan's redemption is not unrealistic. I agree with wkw99 that Raylan will always be Raylan (far from perfect), but I think the writers painted him into this Nicky Augustine hole for a good reason in terms of the character's journey. |
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Post by bookperson39 on Feb 19, 2014 17:17:42 GMT -6
monday, my experience with Raylan was a little different. I didn't see S1 until I'd already watched the first two episodes of S2...so, the Raylan I fell in love with was the one saving Loretta and romancing Winona. Maybe that explains a lot. Monday...you are not a thorn in anyone's side! I've loved our 'debates' about Raylan, Winona, and all other aspects of this show, and I'm so glad you're back with us. Now we just need to get bookperson and riptebook back! I've always been with you, in spirit if not actually online!! You can't get rid of me! I have some "conditions", but I'm never actually "sick". Until this Christmas....yowch...I had a heckuva cold or something. We were in NYC and, thank goodness, our grandaughter, daughter and son-in-law did not catch it, but I sure felt like heck. When I got home I just sort of flopped around the house, reading and watching TV and occasionally dragging my butt out of the house to sub at the library or do an errand. Then I had the grandmother of all sore throats for about a week. I took antibiotics but it was very slow in leaving. I'm finally starting to feel better, but I was really in a daze. I promise to be good and join you all more often. I missed you, but just didn't feel chatty. I'm actually at work now (babysitting several young'uns on the computers). Then, home to skim through all the Olympics I missed. LOL |
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Post by mondayschild on Feb 19, 2014 22:41:39 GMT -6
bookperson, as we get older everything gets harder to overcome. I hope you are feeling better. We have missed you. I am struggling with high blood pressure and high blood sugar right now. Nothing seems to be working.I have been dealing with the blood sugar issue for 12 years now, but am at the point where my weight is suddenly unmanageable and so the blood sugar and blood pressure are a great problem. I see my doctor every month, but everything we have tried is a "no go." My arthritis makes it hard for me to ramp up exercise. I starve myself to no avail. It is pretty darn depressing.
The bad weather has kept me from my volunteer work. I hope you can keep that up because it is a vital link to the outside world and other people. I don't have family here so that is important to me. Needless to say,I am looking forward to spring---big time. My winter has been pretty much like yours. Crappy. Here's to better days.
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Post by Dolphin on Feb 19, 2014 23:59:32 GMT -6
monday, my experience with Raylan was a little different. I didn't see S1 until I'd already watched the first two episodes of S2...so, the Raylan I fell in love with was the one saving Loretta and romancing Winona. Maybe that explains a lot. Monday...you are not a thorn in anyone's side! I've loved our 'debates' about Raylan, Winona, and all other aspects of this show, and I'm so glad you're back with us. Now we just need to get bookperson and riptebook back! That's a good point. When did we fall in love with Raylan? It explains a whole lot. I fell in love with him when I saw my first ep, Reckoning. He was wounded, angry, hurt. Leary of his old man. And Winona was with him. |
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andiiv
Full Member
Chitty Chitty Gang Bang
Posts: 209
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Post by andiiv on Feb 20, 2014 7:05:09 GMT -6
For me it was somewhere in the pilot or episode 2. I can't recall exactly but it was damned quick.
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Post by siss13 on Feb 20, 2014 12:53:02 GMT -6
Hmmm...now I'm trying to think if it was one specific moment of falling in love with Raylan or a combination of events. I think it was a combination of the first four episodes of the first season when the Raylan love bug bit me. I've been hooked ever since.
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Post by ripetebook on Mar 3, 2015 15:55:07 GMT -6
Stumbled upon this. Was in the hospital during that time! So first..it was for me that opening scene of the pilot that won me over. We learned later that buck had killed an innocent farmer in Nicaragua and would never pay. Then he returns to Miami and yes...Raylan doled out his version of justice.
I feel he had seen so much injustice growing up that at times he feels compelled to "right a wrong"... And yes they border on bad stuff...but who among us wouldn't want the Raylan method to save us. Sometimes the rules fail and witnesses die...think of who Raylan protects!!!!! His loved ones. The lost girl that reminds him of himself at 14. When it came to revenge for art...he went by the book in honor of the man he trusts and respects. One of the best parts of season six...the talks between Raylan and Art.
Raylan is in my eyes...a hero. Flaws and all. He sees wrongs and tries to make them right. Think of the man he could have become with arlo as an example and the man he is.
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Glad you are back!!)
