exdusm
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Post by exdusm on Jun 20, 2012 20:55:45 GMT -6
I enjoy engaging in speculation over my ultra-favorite shows (there have really only been two: The X-Fhiles and Justified), so bear with me. 1. Was Raylan ending up in Harlan orchestrated, taking advantage of the fall-out from the Tommy Bucks shooting? While Art Mullen only may have been returning a favor by accepting Raylan's transfer into the Eastern KY USMS office., I'm wondering if Miami Chief Dan Grant, who could have sent Raylan (wanted or unwanted) to any understaffed office and even back to Glynco (which would have been the logical place to 'bury' him) sent Raylan to KY at the suggestion/influence of AUSA Vasquez? Seizing upon the Tommy Bucks shooting and the investigation of Raylan, did AUSA Vasquez take advantage, put a call to the Miami AUSAs office and suggest a transfer to E/KY? While I find it hard to believe that neither Art nor Dan did not know that Raylan was from Harlan. It certainly would have been on his government application (they want to know just about everything except how many times you piss in a day) and the FBI background check prior to his acceptance into the service. It is conceivable Raylan did not discuss his past with Art while working together at Glynco, being just drinking-buddy friendly. But the background investigation involved talking to teachers, neighbors (like they would really talk to a fed  , and employers. David Vazquez certainly would have access to that info, given that USMS and AUSAs work closely together in the Justice Dept/Federal Judiciary. Vasquez was gunning for the Crowders, and probably others/Dixie Mafia, involved with drugs, guns, robbery, in Harlan (and for political ambition?). Who took those photographs of Raylan and Ava in Vasquez' possession? How did he get them and in exchange for what? Were these photos taken to persuade Raylan if he balked? 2, It is evident why Raylan grew to hate Arlo. I find this quite baffling, though: Why does Arlo hate Raylan, especially when it is implied that Arlo had antipathy for him almost since birth? In Harlan, sons are valued if even if not raised properly. There are an abundance of psychosocial reason why a man hates a child, abuses and sometimes murders: (1) He is a mean/nasty/angry wife and child abuser; (2) psychosis (delusions/hallucinations) and this could also be a temporary state as a result of ingestion of certain drugs, ie, crystal meth; (3) alcohol/substance abuse and rage reactions (often during and post-divorce (4) sexual deviance (pedophile and/or incest) associated with threatening behavior to assure silence; (5) pathological jealousy of the mother's affection for the child (and fear of retaliation from the child as he matures; (6) homophobia and the belief that a child, while appropriately behaving as expected of a child within their age cohort, is not nor will be a man (ie, a male child who cries or is appropriately attached to his mother will be a sissy, etc), All of these are magnified if it is another man's child and perhaps more so if that child is mixed-race or if there is a cultural difference. Historically (maybe not modern-day practice), within the Mormon community, there was the phenomenon of the 'lost boys': sons, as they reached adolescence, who were driven out of the polygamous household for fear of competition. Statistically, among children murdered by the male spouse/relative or the boyfriend, it is ususally not the biological father of the child. (7) Hatred/anger for the mother is visited upon the child (rage reaction/revenge), sometimes resulting in murdering the spouse, child(ren) followed by suicide; (8) Pathological jealousy/possessiveness/controlling of the mother and insistent/persistent taunting that the mother has been unfaithful, even with evidence to the contrary, therefore persistent belief that the child is of another male. Did Arlo accuse Frances of sleeping around in Harlan and/or Nobles Holler? 3. Raylan did not attend his mother's funeral. What was the true nature of Raylan's relationship with his mother? Clearly he loved her, but did he also resent her for not protecting him from Arlo? For not being the one who helped him to leave Harlan? Does he resent her for dying? Was her death under mysterious circumstances? Sickness? Suicide?. If Raylan never looked back nor returned to Harlan after getting out, then he did not visit his mother, whatever her condition. And that also means he did not come back to attend her funeral. That, in itself, is very significant - but about what we don't yet know. Frances' absence, the mystery of her life and death, is a glaring hole yet to be filled. That female presence/essence-in its very absence- is a powerful force amidst all the combined testosterone (male posturing, swagger, violence, etc). Ava and Rachel also contribute to that balm, and with strength. While Raylan is sincerely & deeply appreciative and grateful for what his Aunt Helen did for him, that she loved him like her own (hmmm), and while he loves/loved her, there always seemed to be some friction in their interactions, and not always because of Arlo. Were the sisters close -or not- or something in-between? Could there have tensions and/or jealousy related to competition for Arlo? Jealousy over the baby/child Raylan's affections? Just idle thoughts that help me in attempting to write fanfic. This is a TV show with stories/plots being told in the most direct and straight-forward way as possible, but something has to jump out to move-forward the character-driven aspects of the show. Sorry for being long-winded. Comments? Thoughts? Spin? Events/dialogue that might contradict/support any of the above? I have a bad memory and, so far, I have only seen season 2 twice, and season 3 once, but season 1 ~3 times straight through, some S1 eps even more. I have a few more observations that get me to thinking, but I'll save for another day. |
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Post by mondayschild on Jun 20, 2012 21:58:39 GMT -6
exdusm, you raise some VERY interesting questions.
I have always wondered:
As you have pondered, so have I: Who took those pictures of Raylan and Ava? Ava's bedroom was on the second floor. You have to be VERY GOOD to get intimate pictures under those circumstances. We didn't see any billing and cooing in public, that I remember. Someone was inside.
Could Helen have become pregnant out of wedlock and given Raylan to her sister and Arlo to raise?
This would explain Helen's protectiveness of Raylan and Arlo's unfatherly treatment of him. (This situation actually happened in my mom's family, although the little boy was much loved by his aunt and uncle, who adopted him.) Arlo, on the other hand, being a hateful, selfish, and prideful man, would not have been so accepting. He would regret agreeing to the arrangement and would have taken it out on Frances and Raylan.
Raylan's assignment to Harlan. Even though Raylan set up Tommy Bucks, Bucks DID pull first. And I don't think the PTB were THAT sorry to see him go. They had to go through the motions and express righteous indignation at what Raylan had done, of course, but it always seemed a bit too convenient to me---to send him back home. They surely knew he would not want to go, so they had to have an excuse to get him back there. He was a valuable resource to have in Harlan. He knew the area and the people. Who better to have in place there?
I think that Raylan had serious issues with his mother, as well as with his father. Raylan,being Raylan, has never sought closure on these issues. In some communities, it is considered a great weakness to go into counseling. It just isn't done. People might go to their minister who would tell them to "pray on it." But Raylan doesn't have a church, and I would guess that there is not an abundance of behavioral therapists in Harlan. So he has probably never even tried to come to terms with his problems. There had to be a reason that he did not go to his mother's funeral, and it had to be more than not wanting to see Arlo. He seems to want to protect her memory, but there is a deep, dark secret somewhere in there. He couldn't face talking to Limehouse about it.
These are the things that bother me. A lot of people blame Raylan for his inability to sustain a relationship with Winona. They never sought professional help, that we know of. Raylan has so many demons that he has swept under the rug. They inform his decisions, or his lack, thereof. In order for Raylan to get the help he needs, there would have to be an "intervention." He has succeeded in avoiding dealing with his problems for his whole life.
A conflicted Raylan is an interesting Raylan...up to a point. I for one would love to see him have to come face to face with the things that have made him what he is. (The bonus here would be some great dramatic scenes worthy of an Emmy!)
Just my humble opinion. Good luck with the fanfic!
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Post by Dolphin on Jun 20, 2012 22:57:22 GMT -6
Welcome, exdusm. I was (and still am) an X Phile, too!!!! Your questions are interesting. Have you read 'Fire in the Hole?' It gives little to no information on motivation and is mostly brilliant dialogue based ... much of which is verbatim in the Pilot. My take is that with the short 13 episode seasons, and the competitive nature of today's television, the writers didn't have time to explore many of our questions. I was hoping that the S3 episode with AD Karen Goodall would have given us some more clues to the overall workings of the Marshall Service. But no. I can only hope we see AUSA Vasquez again in S4. Maybe he'll investigate Tim or Art or Rachael for a change. Also, Justified has such a large ensemble cast .... unlike X Files for example ... which did not introduce central characters in the Pilot other than Mulder, Scully, CSM, and Section Chief Blevins (and later, AD Skinner). It then gradually introduced other characters, family members, etc. Family members never played central parts of the story in terms of regular screen time throughout the season. Sure, there were arcs with Mulder's family or Scully's family. But the characters didn't re0ccur in almost every episode. Not like Justified does it. You raise good questions for fanfic!  To Monday, I agree about a conflicted Raylan ... to a point. I mean, the man's carrying a gun!!!! Despite his past, we are left to assume he is a good man and thus, a good law man. How many times has Winona told us that? |
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exdusm
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Post by exdusm on Jun 28, 2012 4:11:16 GMT -6
exdusm, you raise some VERY interesting questions. Thanks so much. mondayschild and Dolphin, for reading and commenting. I've been meaning to get back, but my sciatica has flared again and I havn't been able to sit at my computer long enough to do anything meaningful. Yes, and the how they were taken could be as interesting as the who who took them. But could there have been a hidden camera in the room ? I think the picture trail is going to twist and turn right into David Vasquez' office. Some Elmore Leonardesque-type character will emerge, or maybe even an investigator with the AUSAs office. I am leaning that Arlo is the biological father, onlu because I don't think the writers want to dilute that powerful ending of Slaughterhouse. I am less secure about the maternity. If they want to go off the rails with this and make it an issue in season 4 or later, then the big reveal is more likely that Helen is his biological mother, having had an affair with Arlo, who was seeking what Frances would not give him. Paraphrasing Arlo, he told Raylan that Frances thought that he (Arlo) was never good enough for her. Helen is someone Arlo can relate to. I imagine Arlo and Helen had an affair for some time before and then during his marriage to Frances . Helen and Arlo probably married almost before the flowers on Frances' grave had withered. It is possible he doesn't know what the secret is, just all the fallout surrounding it. The way to handle the pain of knowing is by not knowing, not remembering. Keeping it buried so deep to the point he can't face or deal with a lot of things. Facing any one thing awakens all the other demons. Let one out and there goes the neighborhood inside his psyche.in't gonna go there and alcohol keeps it buried for good measure. Clueless!Rayan: never saw himself as an angry man. I agree. Probably he'll get revelations in bits and pieces. Thanks. It is coming along. My biggest problem now is my sciatica has flared and I cannot sit in my chair at my desk and work. |
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exdusm
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Post by exdusm on Jun 28, 2012 5:45:25 GMT -6
Welcome, exdusm. I was (and still am) an X Phile, too!!!! Your questions are interesting. Have you read 'Fire in the Hole?' It gives little to no information on motivation and is mostly brilliant dialogue based ... much of which is verbatim in the Pilot. Thanks, Dolphin  A sister-Phile! I also still love the X-Files and Duchovney/Mulder. Elmore Leonard it not really to my taste. The lifted bits work quite well in the series. I appreciate the way he handles dialogue, but I get quite bored reading. FITH was a good, quick read. But I got so bored with Raylan, that I stopped reading 2/3 of the way in. I'm skipping chunks of Pronto, which I am reading now. His Raylan is flat and 2-D to me without the emotional content. But I do study how his dialogue flows. I believe the writers actually cover a great deal indirectly, and usually through the observations of other characters, by actions instead of words, or by very sharp & crisp dialogue. Yost addressed this issue somewhere. He talked about how they have to address the emotional content in series TV vs. the way Raylan is presented in Leonard's works, which appear after long stretches and the character appears in only a few books. I liked the fugitive-of-the-week episodes of season 1, not only because we got to see more of Tim and Rach and Art, but because they show more of the workings of the USMS and we get a respite from the 'hillbillies'. I really disliked the portrayal of the AD character. Cartoonish IMO. High heels! Ack! Raylan is still under investigation. He's not off the hook. Plus, the feds (Secret Service) might turn on him for obstructing justice. Raylan is a good man, and aspires to live up to the standards he believes of the lawmen of the old west. Still, he is deeply conflicted. Although falling well short of having a dissociative personality disorder, IMO his psyche is Raylan Givens and The Marshal, in a dynamic mix. Raylan will always be in a struggle with himself. In order to integrate, to become stronger & healthier, The Marshal will be weakened or has to take a step-back. Metaphorically speaking, The Marshal will not go down easy, and will 'put down' anyone who draws down on him. Interesting psychodrama could ensue, acted out in any number of ways. TO would love that shit..it probably gets him quite hard. Since Boyd is his shadow self (and Boyd is more successful, at least in his mind, in integrating his conflicting self-images, probably facilitated by Love), their interactions could provide enough fireworks to finally send some globes and emmys their way. |
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exdusm
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Post by exdusm on Jul 8, 2012 18:34:46 GMT -6
This has been bothering me for a long time.  Has this been addressed anywhere? Obviously, it is one of those inevitable errors, but this one is of such a magnitude I can't understand why it wasn't caught and subsequently re-looped, especially for the DVD which they take their sweet time in releasing. I don't recall off the top of my head if it is in Reckoning or Bloody Harlan, but Raylan, referring to his murdered Aunt Helen, says (I'm paraphrasing): She raised her dead sister's child like her own. Uh... Frances was very much alive when Raylan left Harlan, and it was Ava who said in the pilot ep, I believe, that she learned from Frances that Raylan had joined the Marshals. Helen may have had a significant role in raising Raylan, but Frances was definitely not dead. Frances' tombstone indicates that she died in 2000. Aunt Frances wasn't raising a 30 year old Raylan. All that had to be done was cut out the word "dead" or just reloop that sentence. Am I missing something? |
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Post by motorcitymade on Jul 8, 2012 19:04:28 GMT -6
Hi exdusm,
We went over this in great detail over at FX after the end of S1. there is a long buried thread over there called "Inconsistencies and Plot Flaws" that goes on and on. Some of us speculated that they might digitally "fix" the tombstone.
There is a comment made by Boyd in to Carole Johnson at the town meeting that Raylan's mother had been gone "many years now."
But there is another comment by Arlo that Raylan didn't come back when his mother died. Meaning Raylan must have been an adult at the time of France's death.
So which is it? Most of us thought that because Frances was the victim of an abusive husband that she wasn't top notch at parenting and that is how Helen came to "raise him." From s3 we know that Frances ran away without her 10 year old son to Nobel's Holler; but we don't know how long she was there.
Basically the whole thing is just a not- well- thought- out Fubar on the creative team.
Oops. Hey, they're great at most things.
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exdusm
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Post by exdusm on Jul 8, 2012 19:34:47 GMT -6
Hi exdusm, We went over this in great detail over at FX after the end of S1. there is a long buried thread over there called "Inconsistencies and Plot Flaws" that goes on and on. Some of us speculated that they might digitally "fix" the tombstone. There is a comment made by Boyd in to Carole Johnson at the town meeting that Raylan's mother had been gone "many years now." But there is another comment by Arlo that Raylan didn't come back when his mother died. Meaning Raylan must have been an adult at the time of France's death. So which is it? Most of us thought that because Frances was the victim of an abusive husband that she wasn't top notch at parenting and that is how Helen came to "raise him." From s3 we know that Frances ran away without her 10 year old son to Nobel's Holler; but we don't know how long she was there. Basically the whole thing is just a not- well- thought- out Fubar on the creative team. Oops. Hey, they're great at most things. Hi, MCM It is major FUBAR and, if they plan to address Frances, her life and death, then the writers have to fix it some kind of way. Boyd's comment is not unreasonable since being deceased going on 10-11 years can be construed by some to be 'many years'. I mentioned somewhere above that Raylon not returning for his mother's funeral, in and of itself, is highly significant. Apparently, there is something to tell, according to Limehouse, and it is still upsetting to Raylan. I must have gone through a later version of that topic on the FX board, but I do not recall seeing this addressed. Helen taking over the parenting role (in her fashion) does suggest that Frances was unable to fulfill that role, although we have been offered no evidence as to why. Mental illness (did she suicide? That might be a reason Raylan did not return for the funeral); physical illness? Too emotionally, as well as physically, beat down by Arlo? Did she give Arlo as good as she got? Was she an addict? Maybe just a young and irresponsible and/or imcompetent parent? |
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Post by motorcitymade on Jul 8, 2012 19:45:45 GMT -6
I think you echo all of the things we discussed. Knowing more about Frances would certainly tell us a lot more about Raylan.
One thing that is hard for me to fathom is WHY Helen would want to marry Arlo? It just doesn't make a lot of sense.
There are a lot more inconsistencies besides the tombstone. At some point, Arlo makes a comment that about "the last 15 years." when speaking about his relationship with Helen; with Frances only dead by 10-11 years??
In The Lord of War and Thunder Raylan snaps at Helen "Consider it a wedding present." As if Helen and Arlo were only recently wed?
The writers probably didn't expect such fan devotion to notice these things.
The only thing I can say is these kind of inconsistencies rarely happen on HBO or SHO series were these is a large budget and longer development time. Did you ever spot an inconsistency on Deadwood? Six feet Under? Boardwalk Empire? Shameless? Game of Thrones? The only one where I can say I ever spotted a FUBAR was Dexter; and that was more just a ridiculously impossible plot twist.
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Post by mondayschild on Jul 8, 2012 22:30:55 GMT -6
Just a few ideas:
Could Frances have been clinically depressed? I know I would be if I had been married to Arlo. Seriously depressed people have a hard time getting out of bed, and if they do manage to do so, they aren't exactly the life of the party. It's very hard for them to life a normal life. If Frances was depressed, it may not even have had anything to do with Arlo, but rather a chemical imbalance. They could have happily married and then things just fell apart later.
Arlo probably never was great spousal material. I don't think he was ever a warm, kind, understanding man. Frances could have had postpartum depression after Raylan's birth. Post partum depression was not really diagnosed that long ago, nor would doctors have known how to treat it. Most "baby blues," as they called it, subsided after a short time. But true postpartum depression was not recognized as such, and is much more serious.
I could see Arlo watching his wife descend into being a totally different person and not handling it well. If it happened after Raylan was born, I could see Arlo blaming Raylan and being abusive to both her and Raylan. She escaped to Noble's Holler when things got bad and more and more often, Helen took over with Raylan in her absence. She also took over when Arlo was hurtful to Raylan.
The more I think about it, the more I think Frances was in a very delicate mental state, or maybe she was not physically sound, and that Arlo reacted to it in the only way that he would...badly.
The time line causes confusion in trying to figure things out. Yes, mcm, why would Helen marry Arlo? Arlo says that they were married for fifteen years, but according to the tombstone, Frances hasn't been dead that long and Raylan would have been an adult when they married. So Helen must have married Arlo sooner. But did she marry Arlo BEFORE she helped the nineteen year old Raylan escape the mines? Only the producers can tell us what they really mean.
If Raylan was still a teen when his mother died, I could see Helen and Arlo undertaking a marriage of convenience in order to establish a two parent home for Raylan. (Not that that would have occurred to a clueless and hateful Arlo, but it would have to Helen.) Arlo would have agreed in order to have a woman around to run his household.
Trying to figure out what happened is difficult without a workable timeline. There are just too many inconsistencies here. Regardless, Helen and Arlo seem to achieved some sort of a balance in their marriage. They stood up for each other when push came to shove, even though they were "at each other" most of the time.
Raylan did not go to Frances's funeral. He did go to Helen"s. For some reason, Raylan was closer to Helen than his own mother. He is carrying a heavy burden when it comes to his mother.He clearly doesn't want to discus it with Limehouse. I really wish the writers would address this, because I think it really plays into who Raylan is as a person.
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Post by Dolphin on Jul 9, 2012 0:06:25 GMT -6
If Raylan's mother was abused by Arlo and ran off to Nobles Holler as we've been led to believe ... is it possible (and not too far fetched) that she could still be alive? If she was really afraid of Arlo, her death could have been faked. And now that Arlo is put away behind bars ... she could finally feel safe enough to 'emerge.' (There would have to be some pretty good back story as to why her life was in such danger .... that she couldn't even trust her own sister. But hey? These are red necks. They could come up with something.) Soapy? Maybe. Possible? Since they've really not addressed her 'death' at all ... sure it is. Abused women back in those days sometimes did 'disappear' to be safe. Faking one's own death to be safe may not be that far-fetched depending on how it is presented. Just a thought. Maybe a bad one. But we're in Season 4 and Raylan will either move on with everything OR remain haunted by things that at some point need to be really addressed. I'm still waiting for some outlaw relative of either Raylan's mother's or father's clans to emerge in Harlan. |
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Post by alphamare on Jul 9, 2012 0:40:29 GMT -6
I just rewatched Helen's funeral. On Raylan's headstone it says 1979. That would make him 21 at the time of Frances' death. He says he was working a deep mine and Helen gave him money to get out of Harlan and be better than Arlo.
I think I chose to believe that Frances was feeble in some way and that made her incapable of raising Raylan on her own. Arlo says he was helpless after she died, so she must have been keeping house and cooking meals, etc. at the time of her death.
Maybe they got a divorce before she died and Arlo started seeing Helen? Cause, you're right, hasn't been 15 years since she died. Maybe she stayed gone after Noble's Holler? Maybe she ran off without Raylan and died before coming back to get him? Started a new life and left him poor, stuck in the mine, living with Arlo.... that might make him a bit hostile toward her memory.
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exdusm
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Post by exdusm on Jul 9, 2012 0:44:28 GMT -6
Wonderful post mondayschild. I enjoyed reading. Just a few ideas: Could Frances have been clinically depressed? IMO, that is the most likely explanation, and the one with the broadest capacity to address both loose plot and character issues. Frances becaming progressively more mentally unstable. Possibly rooted in post-partum depression, as you mentioned, she would be unable to care for her baby. A neglected baby may constantly cry and/or be irritable, maybe eventually becoming detached and listless. No real bonding. It could be chemical imbalance, also as you stated, and maybe it runs in the family. That is an angle I am taking with fanfic. One reason the Raylan we know might not return to Harlan for Frances' funeral is if she committed suicide. Imagine the anger at her and at Arlo and his own guilt. Frances was kind, generous, a great cook eve, and had a good laugh. IMO there must also have been a darker side. Consider that Helen and Frances probably always had a love-hate, competitive relationship. While Helen is more suited temperametally to Arlo (the kind of couple that as they grow older revel in the fighting and arguing), it was Frances that Arlo ultimately married (prettier? more refined in her 'airs' than Helen? vs. he got her pregnant? ). But wanting and having turned out to be totally different things. I think Arlo and Helen were having a thing before, during and after he married Frances. That could be what pushed Frances over the edge: a constant belief that Helen was not only trying to steal her man, but also trying to steal the affections of her baby. Nevermind even if Frances despided Arlo. Potential evidence of her clouded mindset: paraphrasing Arlo: "your mother always hoped that you and I would get closer". Her increasing despair, insecutiy, anger-and what Arlo would call nagging- would drive him further away to drink or tomcat around. Add to that Arlo's increasing abuse, anger at being tied to the marriage because of a child he probably did not want (did she get pregnant to trap/keep him? was it marital rape?) He might have started beating her to make her lose the child. Indeed, it is quite possible things started out ok between them (Frances was probably perceived as being quite the catchback when). Consider that Arlo might have also been quite the catch. We know the mean, nasty, hateful, dangerous Arlo with organic brain disease to compound it all. Common grifter, criminal, con man. But imagine a youthful Arlo who was 'The Shit' in Harlan, probably even before Bo Crowder. Arlo had money (from his cons), was NOT a miner (at least not for long). That and a youthful dangerousness made Arlo quite attractive to many Harlan women. He was probably quite good looking in his youth (if the showrunners had a need for Young!Arlo pictures, Young!Raymond J. Barry was quite good looking. Think of a young Bruce Greenwood-type). Might even have been a letterman in baseball in high school. If Frances were a refined but rebellious teen, Arlo would fit her bill. Arlo may have hardened, turning into a darker version of what was already in his character after his tour(s) in Vietnam. CharmingCon man!Arlo. Recall how masterful Arlo is at charming the nurses ( God of War and Thunder) such that even Raylan was amused and slightly bemused; Arlo engaging the other prisoners surrounding him when he was in lockup; his skillful ease in lying to the suicidal soldier ( Veterans??). Ava thinks Arlo is sweet and, to a certain extent, Winona is empathetic. It is easy to imagine why a young Harlan girl would want him in his prime, pre-Vietnam. Helen would always have been waiting in the wings. Later..recall Helen had cancer, twice, and probably needed Arlo at that time in her life. Particularly if she lost her looks due to the ravages of depression & disease (if mental instability is the scenario they decide to pursue), which would repulse someone like Arlo. Again, if they go that route, we do not know if Frances contributed to traumatizing Raylan due to her labile moods, depression, disappearaces to Noble's Holler, or perhaps hospitalizations due to whatever, This is the essense of the personality and soul of Raylan, and the showrunners Just Cannot.Screw.This.Up. Arlo was lost without Frances. At that stage, I don't think a 2-parent home had meaning for any of them. The last part is more to the point. Convenience. Co-dependence. Fear of loneliness and death. Monetary. Sheer cussedness and being well-matched: someone as strong and stronger than he (ARLO! GET IN THE HOUSE!!! ) Also, Helen had an ace..her relationship with the great and powerful Mags Bennett and Helen's own parcel of power in her day. Amen! Word! Tim, you are a producer..with brains. Produce! |
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exdusm
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Post by exdusm on Jul 9, 2012 0:51:28 GMT -6
Dolphin , and alphamare, great thoughts. I'd love to get back to you tonight but it is almost 3am. Tomorrow.
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Post by wkw99 on Jul 9, 2012 4:05:54 GMT -6
The only thing I can say is these kind of inconsistencies rarely happen on HBO or SHO series were these is a large budget and longer development time. Did you ever spot an inconsistency on Deadwood? Six feet Under? Boardwalk Empire? Shameless? Game of Thrones? The only one where I can say I ever spotted a FUBAR was Dexter; and that was more just a ridiculously impossible plot twist. I don't think that's true. I've noticed inconsistencies in True Blood, which has an awesome budget, and I'm sure, noticed or not, there are inconsistencies in the others you've mentioned. Could it be that you just don't watch them as closely, or multiple times, hmmm??  |
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Post by weegieburd on Jul 9, 2012 4:16:56 GMT -6
I would second that wkw99....we tend to examine everything under a microscope, like I did with your picture when I first saw it.
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Post by wkw99 on Jul 9, 2012 4:19:35 GMT -6
It was mentioned that Arlo has PTSD from his time in Vietnam. Could he and Frances have been married before he left? Perhaps he went away one kind of man and came back another. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened. So Frances finds herself pregnant, married to a man she doesn't know, who isn't the man she loved before he left, and with no resources (or too ashamed) to do anything about it. We tend to forget that even twenty or thirty years ago, domestic violence (or mental illness) were not spoken of the way they are today. Women were kind of considered responsible. If there was something wrong it was YOUR fault, and you were the one who needed to fix it.
I would go along with the post-partum depression thing, except for her running away to Noble's. Most depressed people I have known wouldn't have the gumption to do anything like that. They'd just think they deserved it and allow themselves to be abused.
There has to be a reason she left and didn't take Raylan, and I have to think that it will eventually come out, since Ellstin Limehouse knows and he is very much alive and I hope will continue to be a part of the Harlan landscape.
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Post by motorcitymade on Jul 9, 2012 5:18:03 GMT -6
Wkw you know what a vulcan like nerd I am. I do tend to notice Fubars on film, and well; nothing in those series stick out like the "When did Francis die" Fubar on Justified.
Just sayin'......
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exdusm
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Post by exdusm on Jul 10, 2012 5:49:20 GMT -6
If Raylan's mother was abused by Arlo and ran off to Nobles Holler as we've been led to believe ... is it possible (and not too far fetched) that she could still be alive? Smashing idea, Dolphin. No, a very good and plausible one, given the time and place and Harlan's characters. She is married to a criminal, her son rearranged the kneecap of a Bennett, her sister is a player in brokering the peace. The introduction of the of Noble's Holler opened the door to a treasure trove of richness of history and human stories to fuel Justified and a whole other series for years. A corollary to your speculation is that Frances may have run off to disppear herself, (or she was disappeard through fowl play), no body was ever found. The date on the headstone may actually be the date she was officially declared dead , but not the date she actually died or went missing. That could be fun |
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Post by mondayschild on Jul 10, 2012 13:39:09 GMT -6
There are so many wonderful theories here. Thanks for the input from all of you. These comments always get me thinking.
One thing we do know is that Limehouse has quite a bit of information about this situation. I hope he is back next season and that some of what he knows comes trickling out. It would be very unkind if the writers kept us hanging. We can't be the only viewers who have questions about Frances.
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Post by ripetebook on Aug 28, 2012 12:38:35 GMT -6
exdusm, you raise some VERY interesting questions. I have always wondered: As you have pondered, so have I: Who took those pictures of Raylan and Ava? Ava's bedroom was on the second floor. You have to be VERY GOOD to get intimate pictures under those circumstances. We didn't see any billing and cooing in public, that I remember. Someone was inside. Could Helen have become pregnant out of wedlock and given Raylan to her sister and Arlo to raise? This would explain Helen's protectiveness of Raylan and Arlo's unfatherly treatment of him. (This situation actually happened in my mom's family, although the little boy was much loved by his aunt and uncle, who adopted him.) Arlo, on the other hand, being a hateful, selfish, and prideful man, would not have been so accepting. He would regret agreeing to the arrangement and would have taken it out on Frances and Raylan. Raylan's assignment to Harlan. Even though Raylan set up Tommy Bucks, Bucks DID pull first. And I don't think the PTB were THAT sorry to see him go. They had to go through the motions and express righteous indignation at what Raylan had done, of course, but it always seemed a bit too convenient to me---to send him back home. They surely knew he would not want to go, so they had to have an excuse to get him back there. He was a valuable resource to have in Harlan. He knew the area and the people. Who better to have in place there? I think that Raylan had serious issues with his mother, as well as with his father. Raylan,being Raylan, has never sought closure on these issues. In some communities, it is considered a great weakness to go into counseling. It just isn't done. People might go to their minister who would tell them to "pray on it." But Raylan doesn't have a church, and I would guess that there is not an abundance of behavioral therapists in Harlan. So he has probably never even tried to come to terms with his problems. There had to be a reason that he did not go to his mother's funeral, and it had to be more than not wanting to see Arlo. He seems to want to protect her memory, but there is a deep, dark secret somewhere in there. He couldn't face talking to Limehouse about it. These are the things that bother me. A lot of people blame Raylan for his inability to sustain a relationship with Winona. They never sought professional help, that we know of. Raylan has so many demons that he has swept under the rug. They inform his decisions, or his lack, thereof. In order for Raylan to get the help he needs, there would have to be an "intervention." He has succeeded in avoiding dealing with his problems for his whole life. A conflicted Raylan is an interesting Raylan...up to a point. I for one would love to see him have to come face to face with the things that have made him what he is. (The bonus here would be some great dramatic scenes worthy of an Emmy!) Just my humble opinion. Good luck with the fanfic! |
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Post by ripetebook on Aug 28, 2012 12:40:41 GMT -6
I totally agree - who did take those pictures...the angles were (for me just great) suspicious at the very least and Raylan seemed not all that interested in the who but for sure the what....I suspected Ava but now...or Ava in cahoots with Boyd....but nope...Bo and Boyd?
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Post by ripetebook on Feb 18, 2013 11:32:58 GMT -6
In reply to the June 20 from Mondayschild (I am a Wednesday child) those pictures were taken in Raylan's hotel room. Technically the "deed" was done in the 5th episode of season 1. And didn't he look yummy. I read your whole post. I think Frances deserting Raylan and running to Limehouse left scars...she left him to deal with Arlo...he was only ten. As to why he didn't attend the funeral...well he left Harlan...left all that "pain" behind or so he thought. But add to the funeral is that Helen (he thought he could rely on her and she was becoming or became Arlo's wife. To his heart another betrayal. The truth is Arlo, Frances and Helen combined to make him the man he left Harlan to be free of. Then he let Winona in and he loved her. But in the end...she betrayed his heart with Gary and with leaving him...yes he helped all that but when he was living it...he just stood back and let it happen. He needs to be loved for who he is...and by someone who won't ever leave. Because Raylan NEVER cheated or left Winona...and temptation was plenty. There is a loyalty in him. Maybe we need to discuss Raylan's good qualities...there are plenty. Just saying...and yes flawed/damaged Raylan is far more interesting that a mere shooter/hero....
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Post by ripetebook on Feb 18, 2013 12:09:57 GMT -6
As to Frances - maybe she was ill for a very long time so that would allow for Helen to "raise her sister's son" and why Helen said she spent so much time in that house...because of Raylan. Plus whenever Arlo got ugly and violent...she came in her Ford Fairlane and he just jumped in and went to her place...cable and cokes....his love of old westerns was born there....even Arlo made the comment that Helen let him watch TV til it rotted his eyes/brain. Helen could stand up to Arlo...maybe Frances could not so Helen was the strong mother and Frances the weak mother? |
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, and employers. David Vazquez certainly would have access to that info, given that USMS and AUSAs work closely together in the Justice Dept/Federal Judiciary. Vasquez was gunning for the Crowders, and probably others/Dixie Mafia, involved with drugs, guns, robbery, in Harlan (and for political ambition?). Who took those photographs of Raylan and Ava in Vasquez' possession? How did he get them and in exchange for what? Were these photos taken to persuade Raylan if he balked?
A sister-Phile! 
Has this been addressed anywhere? Obviously, it is one of those inevitable errors, but this one is of such a magnitude I can't understand why it wasn't caught and subsequently re-looped, especially for the DVD which they take their sweet time in releasing. 
